TESTIMONY OF BUFORD LEE BEATY

The testimony of Buford Lee Beaty was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For the record, I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
This Commission has been appointed pursuant to Executive Order of President Johnson issued on November 29, 1963, and pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the provisions of the Resolution and Executive order, the Commission has authority to establish rules and procedure which they have done, and pursuant to those rules and procedures I have been designated to come here to Dallas to take your sworn deposition.
You are appearing here by virtue of a letter which was sent from the general counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry.
Actually, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice. However, under the rules of the Commission, if you want to, you can waive the notice, and we can go forward without the actual letter, I will ask you a little later whether you want a letter, or waive it.
The scope of this investigation is that we are directed to investigate and evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts that surround the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Our particular concern in calling you is in connection with the death of Lee Oswald, although I am going to ask you some questions that will develop a little background that people who are working on the assassination of the President can use to decide whether you were in a position to provide some physical action that something might have happened in which they are particularly concerned about and as to which they need more witnesses.
But our primary concern in talking to you is to find out the matters which might be relevant to Ruby, although we are interested in anything else that you might know of your own knowledge that is valuable to the Commission. Let me ask you first of all, would you like us to get you a written letter.
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is shaking his head no. I might say, she has to take your answer down.
Mr. BEATY. I am sorry; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, also, you are entitled to an attorney.
Mr. BEATY. What do I need an attorney for?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people come with attorneys. I don't want you to feel that maybe if you come with an attorney that you are prejudiced.
Mr. BEATY. I don't need 'an attorney, I don't think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BEATY. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your name for the record?
Mr. BEATY. Buford Lee Beaty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Beaty?
Mr. BEATY. 404 Freeman, Garland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. BEATY. July 10, 1924.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?
Mr. BEATY. Police department, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. BEATY. Fifteen and a half years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department?
Mr. BEATY. Narcotics.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been there?
Mr. BEATY. Altogether, about 4 years. This last time, about 6 months, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the earlier period that you were with the narcotics bureau?
Mr. BEATY. From 1957 to 1960. And then I came back this time in June.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now from 1960 until you came back, what bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Burglary and theft.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold a particular rank?
Mr. BEATY. Detective; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ruby announced that you would recognize him?
Mr. BEATY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you happened to first become familiar with Mr. Ruby?
Mr. BEATY. When I first met him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. BEATY. Well, I wrote him a traffic ticket one time about 1951, or something like that. But I knew of him before then. He had a joint down on South Ervay, and he was always calling the police to pick up drunks and one thing and another. Everybody knows Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was the Silver Spur?
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with your duties in the narcotics bureau, did you ever have occasion to talk with him or conduct any investigation in connection with him?
Mr. BEATY. About narcotics specifically?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, in connection with any of your duties, investigating duties with the police department, as opposed to traffic tickets? Let me ask you that question generally.
Mr. BEATY. Not that I ever recall. I can't think of anything specifically at all where I could say I had occasion to interrogate him about anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is, was Jack Ruby ever treated by you as a person whom you might go to if you needed to find out about somebody?
Mr. BEATY. A confidant? No, sir; absolutely not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether other people you worked with in the narcotics bureau might have attempted to use him?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with any narcotics investigation that ever took place with respect to Jack Ruby?
Mr. BEATY. None.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how often would you say that you saw Ruby during the last 3 years?
Mr. BEATY. Possibly, four, maybe five times.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the occasions for seeing Jack?
Mr. BEATY. Well, I saw him one time. I was working late nights and I saw him walking his dog after his joint closed down on Commerce Street, and I run into him on the street, and I go by his joint. You don't say hello and look around. You say hello.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever stop in and visit you while you were in your office at the police department?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; that was the last time I saw him before the shooting. He came by---didn't particularly come to see me, but he just came to the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall about When that was?
Mr. BEATY. No; it seemed like it was about a month before all this happened, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak to anybody in the narcotics office?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked to myself, and I believe Lieutenant Cornwall was in and out of the office, and Dan Asabell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you all talked with Jack about?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked about a girl. He had a stripper down there. Let me think if I remember what her name was. Jada from New Orleans.
The whole thing was how he thought Jada was just a little indecent about her act and he would have to turn the lights off every once in a while and tell her to clean it up a little bit, and one thing and another. And how they went through a little "Hazel" in Judge Richburg's court over all this. It was all in the papers, the whole story was and that is about the gist of what we talked about. And Jada testified at the previous thing.
The bureau I work in, the special bureau, also handles all the dancehall licenses and the liquor licenses and it could be that, I don't believe he made a special trip to our office, I think he came to the bureau and might have had a little business for a liquor license, or something, I don't know. I didn't ask him about it at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the narcotics bureau, is that correct to call it a bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Narcotics section is a subdivision of the special service bureau, is that correct?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Within the special service bureau, there is a department which handles dancehall policemen?
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does everybody who is a part of the special service bureau occupy the same suite of offices?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the narcotics bureau occupy the same suite of offices as the dancehall bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other people occupy the same suite of offices?
Mr. BEATY. Vice squad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, Detective Beaty, that you were on duty on November 22, the day the President was shot?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; I was.
Mr. BEATY. Trade Mart.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from the Trade Mart?
Mr. BEATY. Went back to our office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Mr. BEATY. I think until about 9 o'clock that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you. on duty on the 23d?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the police department all day on the 23d?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. What day was the 23d?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Saturday.
Mr. BEATY. Yes.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to Friday, did you see Jack Ruby in the hallway at all on Friday, or any place in the police department?
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby any time on Saturday?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you left the police department on Saturday ?
Mr. BEATY. Worked a lot of overtime. I am trying to remember. It was probably 6:30 or 7 o'clock that night; Saturday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall whether when you left the police department that night you had heard any rumors or had received any kind of information that would indicate that Oswald was going to be moved from the city jail to the county jail on Saturday?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Sunday a regular day for you to report to duty?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for duty?
Mr. BEATY. Eight o'clock that morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car that morning?
Mr. BEATY. In the basement, I believe. No; that is not right. It is Sunday you are talking about now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you to save my life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime on Sunday did you ever have occasion to come in the Commerce Street, come down the steps from Commerce Street and walk down the hallway in the basement that leads to the records room?
Mr. BEATY. The pedestrian entrance to the city hall basement?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. BEATY. I don't remember that either. If I park my car on Commerce Street around there somewhere, I probably did. If I parked it on Main, I probably took that other entrance, but I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don't remember, that is all right.
Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you report up to the narcotics bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on the third floor?
Mr. BEATY. No; on the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the narcotics bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Until about 9:15 or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you de at 9:15?
Mr. BEATY. Everyone decided we wanted to get some coffee, and as we got off the elevator in the basement, I noticed all the newspaper people standing out there and a couple of reserve officers and a policeman, I think, whose name was Nelson. I didn't know him at the time. He was guarding the entrance. And just curiosity made me, instead of going to get coffee, stay around to see what was going on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the people that you were going to go to coffee with in the narcotics bureau?
Mr. BEATY. No; vice and narcotics, and some administrative section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any people from the third floor?
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where they went after coffee?
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go out of the building?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; out of the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me what happened when you saw this fellow Nielson.
Mr. BEATY. Right away, nothing. I mean I just happened to glance over here and here's two officers, and nothing happened. I just kind of lingered behind and I didn't care for coffee anyway, and I told them I would wait for them, and I kind of figured they would maybe move Oswald, and I just wanted to see him and that is what it amounted to.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--you expected that Oswald would be moved fairly soon?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you received some word before that?
Mr. BEATY. Everybody in the world, at 10 o'clock. They said in the newspaper and radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By this time when the boys in your group went out for coffee, had there been any instructions to standby?
Mr. BEATY. None.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later receive some instructions to standby to help in the Oswald move?
Mr. BEATY. As Capt. O. A. Jones got off the elevator, and as he walked by, he said, "Come here, I want to talk to you."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this take place in the basement?
Mr. BEATY. Right by the elevator door to the basement. He said there will be some officers come down from the third floor, and told me to wait for them right here, and he indicated close by the entrance to the jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Detective Beaty, what is your best estimate of how long this encounter with Jones was before Oswald actually came downstairs?
Mr. BEATY. What time did he get shot? It was about probably 30 minutes before he actually came down and Ruby shot him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the important thing. I would rather have you fix it in terms of that time rather than some specific time.
Mr. BEATY. Around 30 minutes or something like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Because I noticed in the interview which you gave to the FBI, you indicated that this was about 10 o'clock that you saw Jones. Did you have any idea at the time when you gave this interview to Agents Dallman and Quigley--that was on December 3--did you have anything specific in mind when you told them that it was 10 o'clock.
Mr. BEATY. I just was trying to remember when Captain Jones told me to remain there. No; I was just trying to remember about the lapse of time, it seemed to me like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to look over this with me. Let me point out, you indicated here that you thought Oswald came down about 11:30?
Mr. BEATY.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they have reported that you told them that it was 10 o'clock. Now it may be that that was that time it could be a mistake on their part writing it down?
Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.
Mr. BEATY. Boy, it is hard to remember, but it seems to me like he breezed through in just probably about 30 minutes---could possibly be longer--after Mr. Jones told me this. I waited around for probably another 4 or 5 minutes and the elevator doors opened up, and here all the officers from the third floor, and we moved from there out into the middle hallway. And they describe it here as a, whatever, I don't know, right outside the jail office door, the little hall where they brought him out of the jail office door there, and we remained there for about 30 minutes. And if the shooting actually occurred around 11:30, I have made an error about the original time Captain Jones said that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take my pen and on this statement would you want to put a circle around the 10 o'clock and make some note out on the side that what you meant was 30 minutes before the shooting, or whatever you think was the accurate time?
Mr. BEATY. Gosh, I don't remember. I just can't remember to save my life what time it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How is your memory as to the fact that it was about 30 minutes before the shooting?
Mr. BEATY. Thirty minutes, may be an hour. That times passes so fast along in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it could have been longer than an hour?
Mr. BEATY. I don't think so; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be fair to say, and I want you to be very frank about

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this, because I don't want to change this in any way that isn't fair, would it be fair to change this time 10 a.m., to read---
Mr. BEATY. That it was 10 or 10:30, would that be all right, because I don't remember?
Mr. GRIFFIN. To read a half hour or--to an hour before Oswald was shot?
Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't carry a watch so I never know what time it is unless I ask somebody and it would be a matter of kind of remembering, and if you want to say 10 or 10:30, that would be about the same time, wouldn't it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be just fair to say, "I am not certain about the exact time?"
Mr. BEATY. That would be fine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wish you would do this in your own handwriting and write in there, "I am not certain about the time."
Mr. BEATY. [Makes statement and initials.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a date after your initials.
Mr. BEATY. 3-26--64. I don't even remember what month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, do you recall any of the people who came down in the contingent with Captain Jones?
Mr. BEATY. They are listed on the back of that, the best I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have listed on page 32, of what we have labeled Commission Document 85 (Beaty Exhibit 5040), the names of about a dozen police officers. Did you see all these people come down together, or these people that you remember as having been in the basement?
Mr. BEATY. They came let me read them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read them for the record. B. H. Combest. J. H. Hutchinson.
Mr. BEATY. Those two, boy, they are supposed both special service officers, too, and I don't know how in the world they could have received word unless they called and told them to come down, because they were the only ones from the special service bureau down there with me at the time. I can't remember them getting off the elevator at the time, but Captain Martin---
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read them. W.J. Harrison.
Mr. BEATY. Yes; I remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. James Watson.
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. L. D. Miller.
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. R. L. Lowery.
Mr. BEATY. Yes; he was on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. J. Charles Goolsby?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Chambers.
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Frank Martin.
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant W. Wiggins?
Mr. BEATY. No; he wasn't. He was a jail supervisor. He was already down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. R. C. Wagner?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the complete list.
Mr. BEATY. They must have been on two elevators.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have these men that you saw come down, Harrison, Cutch-shaw, Watson, Miller, Lowery, Goolsby, Chambers, and Martin, were all those people attached to the juvenile bureau?
Mr. BEATY. No; Chambers is forgery. Goolsby is juvenile. Lowery is juvenile. Wagner, I believe, is forgery. Watson is auto theft. Harrison is juvenile. I don't know where Miller works.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Cutchshaw?
Mr. BEATY. Cutchshaw is juvenile. Hutchinson and Combest are both special services.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Wagner was not in the elevator?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; he was with them.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. He came down in the elevator?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; Wiggins wasn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiggins wasn't in the elevator. Now, when these men got off the elevator, what did they do? Where did they go?
Mr. BEATY. Walked straight out there in front of the elevator to the windows by---are you familiar with that place down there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am.
Mr. BEATY. What I call it, where you go through that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Might as well call it the window in front of the jail office, if that is where it was.
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to sketch a diagram of the basement. Did they go through the swinging doors?
Mr. BEATY. We waited right about here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating just about at the first window of the jail office as you come from the elevator?
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The elevator we are talking about is the general elevator that services all floors and is available to anybody that comes into the building?
Mr. BEATY. We are not talking about the jail elevator?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right.
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you all congregated outside that window, what took place?
Mr. BEATY. Within 5 or 10 minutes, Captain Jones came through and spoke to me, and we walked through the small hall by the jail office window into the double doors and he instructed us to stand on either side of that hallway, which would be just outside the double doors as you enter into the basement parking area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mr. Beaty, I am going to hand you my pen. I am going to ask you if you will mark on this diagram where was your understanding that people were to place themselves.
Mr. BEATY. Where they were assigned?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what assignments did Jones make at that point?
Mr. BEATY. He said, "Divide yourself up about half and half. Half on this side and half on this side."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have drawn a line on either side, straight line on either side of the hallway that leads out between the swinging doors and the Main Street and Commerce Street ramp.
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell officers to stand any place except along those two walls where you have drawn the line?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir. He instructed us to, when they brought Oswald out of the smaller swinging door in the outside hall, to make a path for him and be sure that nobody got to him or slowed him down. In other words, indicating that--I don't remember whether he said to get to him or not. He just said keep the people back so we can get him through, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: What was your understanding that you people were to do, if anything, when Oswald got abreast of you?
Mr. BEATY. To keep the people back. Of course, over here where I was, there was nobody behind me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place on the chart where it was you were stationed? Put an "X" there.
Mr. BEATY. [Complies.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you again. As Oswald moved out of the jail office and approached the car that he was to get in, did you have any understanding as to any action that you were supposed to take?
Mr. BEATY. Like I said before, of course, there was nobody at that time, we thought, but the press and police officers down there, and at that time we were, television cameras were set up across the ramp behind a railing about 4 foot tall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you place the TV cameras?

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Mr. BEATY. Somewhere right there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to put the TV cameras in a square.
Mr. BEATY. [Complies.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there only two TV cameras in the basement?
Mr. BEATY. The best I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there was a TV camera in the garage entrance-way to the garage?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I sure don't. There were so many of them, and guys had them on their shoulders, and little tape recorders, and one thing all over the joint.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am talking only about TV cameras, the big things that set on a tripod as opposed to little movie cameras
Mr. BEATY. They had some of the shoulder cameras.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wasn't thinking of them. I am just talking about the stationary cameras.
Mr. BEATY. I suppose I didn't pay any attention to them at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am only talking now about the instructions that you remember that came from Captain Jones. Do you have any idea as to what you were to do when Oswald got abreast of you?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. He told us we would keep this aisle clear, and at this time the cameras were run in and out of this door and something through this door, and around here, and then he returned in about 3 or 4 minutes later and said, "All you people from the press move back into the driveway." And I will indicate it by a dotted line across here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.
Mr. BEATY. And over into the driveway entrance of the parking area from the Commerce Street, Main Street ramp. Would you want a dotted line?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let me ask you a question about that. What is your best estimate of the number of people that were over in the garage entrance area?
Mr. BEATY. Counting the people here behind the camera?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not counting the people behind the camera.
Mr. BEATY. Right along in here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; along the dotted line.
Mr. BEATY. Thirty-five or forty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that congested?
Mr. BEATY. No; it wasn't. You can get that many people in. It is a pretty wide area. Looks like it might be 50 feet across there, if this is 15.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, across that 50-foot area, was there just a single line across there?
Mr. BEATY. They could be doubled or tripled. They were all scattered out, of course. But there seemed like there was some congestion right around there and behind the cameras.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you draw a half circle in the area or quarter circle in the area where the congestion was?
Mr. BEATY. Right along in here, best I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there appear to be people standing behind the TV cameras?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there people standing up above the TV cameras, if you recall?
Mr. BEATY. I don't know what they would stand on. There is nothing for them to stand on unless they had a box or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did the congestion in this area that you have indicated by a half circle which runs from about the position of the TV camera close to the Main Street side, to about the middle of the entrance to the garage, how did the congestion in that area compare to the congestion along the Main Street ramp or across the Main Street ramp?
Mr. BEATY. The best I remember, most of the people that moved out of this area moved into this area here. Then they moved over here. It looked like there might have been as many here, or more, as there were over here. There must have been a hundred all together all scattered out all in the basement, and they wouldn't stay still. They would mill around as long as they didn't

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get past this line here, and we weren't too concerned with them, because they had uniform officers out here in the basement and they brought those down earlier and shook down all the cars a time or two, and I don't know what was going on out here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many uniformed officers did you see stationed back here in the basement area?
Mr. BEATY. Earlier?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at the time Oswald came out.
Mr. BEATY. I didn't see any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that there might not have been officers there?
Mr. BEATY. No; there were some earlier, about
Mr. GRIFFIN. About 50 in there? Did you see them search the basement?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they search the basement, can you remember, before or after you got the instructions from Captain Jones?
Mr. BEATY. I couldn't remember. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you down in the basement?
Mr. BEATY. What do you call the basement now, this or this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about the whole bottom area, all the way from the elevators that come down from the upstairs.
Mr. BEATY. After the instructions, because I wouldn't be out here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you, prior to the time that your friends planned to go out for coffee, down in the basement at all?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were down in the basement at the time the search of the basement was conducted?
Mr. BEATY. This was a good hour and a half or something like that, later on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The basement was searched substantially after you got down there?
Mr. BEATY. Yes. And I understand that this was the second time it happened. In other words, well, I heard somebody say we have swept the basement out twice already and I don't remember who said this. This is to indicate that they searched the cars.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was in charge of the search that you saw take place?
Mr. BEATY. I would assume that since it was uniformed officers, it would be Captain Talbert, because they were all uniform officers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not Sergeant Dean was in charge of that search?
Mr. BEATY. No; Sergeant Dean was there and so was Sergeant Putnam, and I don't think you could say one was in charge or the other one was in charge. It was a Joint operation. I would say Captain Talbert was in charge. And, actually, he wasn't down there. He would drop by and leave a few instructions, some for Dean and some for Putnam and the like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period that you were down in the basement, did you see cars going in and out, coming up and down the ramp?
Mr. BEATY. Saw one leave, it was a squad car, and it left and went this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp. Did you see any other cars coming in the basement? Were officers coming in on routine duty and so forth?
Mr. BEATY. I am sure there were, but I don't remember whether they were or not. I know that they closed it from 9 o'clock on, but I can't remember exactly what time they shut it off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you first walked out in here in front of the swinging doors toward the ramp, do you recall if the TV lights were on?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir; they weren't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when the armored car came in?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if the TV lights were on at that time?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I am quite sure that they took some picture of it, but I don't remember whether, and there again which lights are you talking about?

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Man, they were everywhere down there. And the armored car backed down this ramp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Commerce Street?
Mr. BEATY. Commerce Street ramp. And there were people with cameras on the Main Street ramp back over here, back behind this 55-foot entrance to the garage. They were everywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there some sort of floodlights set up in connection with the TV cameras?
Mr. BEATY. I am sure there were. They were awful bright. I don't know whether they were hooked onto the cameras or something. They brought in this material, but the best I remember, there was a bunch of them over in this area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Behind the camera?
Mr. BEATY. Well, not necessarily. They could have been under or over. You couldn't hardly tell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that the armored car came down the ramp, did you see what happened around that armored car?
Mr. BEATY. Like what now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anything that happened?
Mr. BEATY.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the armored car come down?
Mr. BEATY. It took them quite a while to get the armored car down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see it come down?
Mr. BEATY. Not the whole time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked up toward that armored car, were you able to see people around that armored car from where you were standing?
Mr. BEATY. Well, tell me when you are talking about?
Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime.
Mr. BEATY. It took it about 5 minutes to back down, because it was too tight for the ramp, and they didn't get it all the way in there. They were very, very cautious and careful, and it parked up the ramp, and I don't remember seeing anybody around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Chief Batchelor coming down into the basement and going up to the armored car?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any police officers up in the area of the armored car?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was an officer--did you see an officer stationed up at the top of the Main Street ramp?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I couldn't see that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of the police that were stationed that you didn't have a straight view of the ramp?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over in this direction over here, could you see any police officers over in there? The place that I am indicating is in the direction of the Main Street ramp. Did you see any police officers?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; some of those officers I mentioned, I don't remember exactly how they were stationed, which ones. The plainclothes officers were standing on this side here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us--I am not asking you who you subsequently learned was over there, but who you actually remember seeing in that line?
Mr. BEATY. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. The only reason I could on this report I made, I remember who all was down there. That I could remember. And I remember one was on our side, and I assumed the others were on the other side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you look over here toward the TV cameras--
Mr. BEATY. I am not looking over there much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If, when you did on occasions look over there, could you see people around the TV cameras
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any trouble distinguishing their faces?

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Mr. BEATY. After the lights were on, you couldn't see nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the lights were on, you couldn't see anything over there?
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether or not Captain Jones instructed the men that when Oswald was brought out from the jail office to where you men were standing, that you were supposed to begin to start walking alongside of Oswald toward the armored car?
Mr. BEATY. He told us to keep the path open, and then he changed this detail here and pushed them all back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If all of the members of the press were along the Main Street ramp and were over behind, roughly behind the railing, or at ]east behind the TV camera in the direction of the garage area, what function did you people who were' stationed along where you have marked your "X," that wall that you have your "X," and up the Commerce Street ramp, what function were you people going to have?
Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You certainly didn't expect that you were going to have any trouble from newspaper people, because you were all backed up against the wall, weren't you?
Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do?
Mr. BEATY. When?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Ruby shot Oswald.
Mr. BEATY. When we first, it occurred to me at the time that--you don't have policemen for 15 years, you don't have to sit down and draw them a diagram to have them cover somebody, and Captain Jones said make the way open, and it occurred to me that if we had to move around that corner, fine. At that time there were people all around here and out in the driveway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time Captain Jones set you up, there had been people there ? .
Mr. BEATY. Yes; there had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You then displaced news people, is that right?
Mr. BEATY. No; whenever Captain Jones come back down, and I think he had Sergeant Putnam or Dean, and he instructed them all to get back there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are pointing to is on the opposite side from where you were?
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.
Mr. BEATY. If you go on with your interview, I can tell you what my opinion is why we was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I want you to tell me, what your opinion was.
Mr. BEATY. Well, of course, the people from the press, they brought Oswald out here, they all, Captain Jones asked them to please don't ask him no questions, and let's get this over with as fast as we can. Those are not his exact words, but that is what he meant. So, we all moved back behind this line, and as they brought Oswald out to just about the entrance to the Commerce Street and Main Street ramp right along here
Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a circle where Oswald was.
Mr. BEATY. The three of them were there along here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I have written "Oswald."
Mr. BEATY. And, by the way, after that they moved these people back, these officers on the north side of the hallway were moved out into the ramp area here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. These started to move out?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the' people on your side?
Mr. BEATY. There was only about four of us over there. Mr. GRIFFIN. You people stayed where you were?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Do you think these people who were on the ramp side, which you call the north side

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Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; I would call it the north side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What you have called the north side opposite where you were standing, do you think those people began to move out sort of instinctively?
Mr. BEATY. No; they moved out before he got out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. BEATY. And I am sure that there were some more officers that, I don't that were along here. They had two people stationed out here, a reserve and a--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "X" where these reserves were.
Mr. BEATY. To keep these people from coming through here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was between the swinging doors and the main elevators?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, were there two reserve officers?
Mr. BEATY. No; they had one reserve and one officer stationed here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. BEATY. Yes, and before they brought Oswald out, there was some photographers in this area inside the jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have placed circles in the jail office where there were photographers ?
Mr. BEATY. And they were removed by a uniformed officer and asked to come out here, or out here, or back here, and I recall some of them went this way and went on out and took their place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of them went toward the garage area and some on the Main Street ramp?
Mr. BEATY. Some came back through these double doors, and were standing along this hallway like they might be going to try to photograph through the window. I remember one guy had a big shoulder camera and one at--at one of these windows here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, is it fair to say that one of the functions you people served in standing along the wall that you were on, was to make sure that as these photographers cleared out the jail office, they didn't line up along the wall?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; also, to double check this double door after he went by, and somebody might have gotten instructions, I don't remember whether they did or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, detective, after Oswald was shot, did you go into the jail office?
Mr. BEATY. Yes , sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go upstairs with Ruby?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? After Ruby was upstairs? What did you do?
Mr. BEATY. Captain Jones said, "Do you have a car out," and I told him, "Yes, sir." He said, "Get about five of these officers," and I don't remember which one, "and go to Parkland Hospital and help them with security." And within 5 minutes after he was shot, we were on our way to Parkland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Sergeant Dean was out there?
Mr. BEATY. I don't think he was. He might have been. I didn't remember seeing him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he went in your group?
Mr. BEATY. No; I am pretty sure of both of the detectives in our group.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. BEATY. Let's see, probably after 2 o'clock, maybe 3 o'clock that afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were out at Parkland Hospital, did you hear any rumors about how Ruby got down to the basement?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back to the police department, did you hear any rumors back there as to how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after you got back to the police station were you

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asked to prepare a report to Chief Curry ? Don't look at this. I want you to do this from your own recollection.
Mr. BEATY. Probably the next day. I don't even remember. I couldn't tell you. Somebody said, you got to write a report. But this was the second or third one. We wrote a little report along as we went to kind of, each day we have a daily report we turn in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a report at the end of the day?
Mr. BEATY. I am not sure whether I did that or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do this. After you leave, would you check back at the police department and find out if you did write a daily report.
Mr. BEATY. If I did, it would be a special assignment. It wouldn't have anything to do with the narcotics.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have any details of what you did?
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this map we have been working with, "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5039." Now, is this Exhibit 5039 the document that you have been making marks on during this discussion?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would sign that and then date it ?
Mr. BEATY. [Signs and dates.] What is the date, the 26th?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. All right, I am going to mark the interview report by Agents Dallman and Quigley of the interview with you on December 3, 1963, as "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, 3-26-64"
Mr. BEATY. That happened in Garland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But we are marking it here in Dallas.
Mr. BEATY. Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark what purports to be a copy of a letter which you prepared to go to Chief Curry, which is dated November 27, 1963, and mark that "Dallas, Texas, Detective Beaty, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5041." I want you to look at 5041 and tell me if you had a chance to read that over?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. IS that a true and accurate copy of a letter that you sent to Chief Curry?
Mr. BEATY. That looks like it might be; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have read over both the interview report, Exhibit 5040, and this letter, Exhibit 5041? Other than the changes you have already made on Exhibit 5040, and the testimony which you have already given here today, are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in either-of these?
Mr. BEATY. Not that I can remember or think of. I have thought about it some since it happened to see if I could remember anything that I didn't tell the FBI agents, and I can't think of a thing. Actually, I didn't see a whole lot of the actual shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that you would want to tell the Commission that you think would be important to us in connection with our investigation?
Mr. BEATY. I don't think of a thing. You have covered it pretty well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and I have any interview of any sort prior to the time we took this deposition.
Mr. BEATY. You talked to me in the hall and said read this, is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I handed you Exhibits 5040 and 5041, but other than giving it to you and asking you to read it before the interview?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff?
Mr. BEATY. You are speaking of the Warren Commission?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than the interview that you had with Dallman and Quigley on December 3, 1963, do you recall whether you were interviewed by any other Federal agent?
Mr. BEATY. No; I am pretty sure I wasn't.