Testimony Of Carlos Bringuier

The testimony of Carlos Bringuier was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Carlos Bringuier, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.
Staff members have been authorized to take testimony of witnesses, including you, by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week, stating that I would contact you in connection with the taking of your testimony. I understand that he sent with his letter a copy of the Executive order and resolution to which I have just referred as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive Mr. Rankin's letter?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; I received it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you received copies of the documents that I have referred to?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. I received.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is interested in learning from you, Mr. Bringuier, about the contact that you had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was present in New Orleans in the summer and early fall of 1963. Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, will you state your full name for the record.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Carlos Bringuier.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mr. Bringuier?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Excuse me one moment. May I explain to you? In Cuba we use a long name with a lot of middle names. Do you want the whole middle name too?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; I think that is enough.
Mr. BRINGUIER. It is enough? O.K.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I live in 501 Adele Street, Apartment F.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I was born in Havana, June 22, 1934.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Havana?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I was living in Havana until May 4, 1960. I left Havana to Guatemala and Argentina, and I came to the States in February 8, 1961.
Mr. LIEBELER. You came then to New Orleans, is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That day I arrived to Miami, Florida, and I was in Miami for 10 days, and I came to New Orleans in February 18, 1961.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been here in New Orleans ever since?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Cuban national, is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I am a salesman, retail clothing store with the name of Casa Roca, 107 Decatur Street. I am a salesman and manager of the store.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I started to work in that store in October 1, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you been employed here in New Orleans prior to that time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; I was working for 1 year in Ward's Discount House, 708 Canal Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. You worked there as a salesman also?
Mr. BRINGUIER. As a salesman also.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your educational background?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I was attorney in Cuba and assistant secretary for the criminal court in Havana. I got my degree in 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your degree in what field?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Law.
Mr. LIEBELER. In law?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you then were trained as a lawyer in Cuba----
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time that Castro came to power? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you actually practice law in Cuba?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Not actually, no. I didn't practice law, because I was working, as I told you, in the criminal court, and in Havana, in Cuba, when you was employee of the criminal court, you could not practice law.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become a member of the bar in Cuba or do some act that is similar of becoming a member of the bar here in the United States?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I didn't do any act to become here in United States member of bar.
Mr. LIEBELER. But in Cuba?
Mr. BRINGUIER. In Cuba, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were a member of the bar in Cuba?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you have been active in the Anti-Castro Movement here in New Orleans. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you left Cuba because of your feeling against the Castro regime and your opposition to that regime?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. I did not believe in it, I did not agree with the Communist regime in Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. As a result, you left Cuba and came to the United States? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has your family joined you here in the United States?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, when I went to Argentina, I went with my wife and the three kids at that moment, and after I came to the United States alone, and 2 months later they met me here in the States. I want to explain that I am not in the States as a Cuban refugee but as an immigrant, as a resident.
Mr. LIEBELER. And as an immigrant from Cuba, or from some other ------
Mr. BRINGUIER. From Cuba [producing document].
Mr. LIEBELER. You have shown me an identification card from the Department of Immigration and Naturalization, indicating that you were admitted to the United States as an immigrant on February 8, 1961. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
(Document returned to witness.)


Mr. LIEBELER. I am correct in understanding, am I not, that you have been involved to one degree or another in Anti-Castro activities here in New Orleans since your arrival?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; soon after I arrived here to New Orleans, I founded a Newsletter for the Cubans with the name of Crusada. That was my first work here in New Orleans. After that I joined, at the beginning of 1962, the New Orleans Delegation of the Cuban Revolutionary Council, and I was working as Secretary of Publicity and Propaganda here in New Orleans for the Cuban Anti-Castro. That was, I believe, June or July--June 1962. After that, I resigned, and in July 1962 I was designated New Orleans delegate of the Cuban Student Directorate, and I am in that position from that time to now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us when that was and the circumstances of the event.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the first day that I saw Lee Harvey Oswald was on August 5, 1963, but before we go deeper in this matter about Oswald, I think that I would like to explain to you two things that I think will facilitate the Commission to understand my feeling at that moment.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is perfectly all right. Go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. And you see, in August 24, 1962, my organization, the Cuban Student Directorate, carry on a shelling of Havana, and a few days later when person from the FBI contacted me here in New Orleans--his name was Warren C. de Brueys. Mr. de Brueys was talking to me in the Thompson Cafeteria. At that moment I was the only one from the Cuban Student Directorate here in the city, and he was asking to me about my activities here in the city, and when I told him that I was the only one, he didn't believe that, and he advised me and I quote, "We could infiltrate your organization and find out what you are doing here." My answer to him was, "Well, you will have to infiltrate myself, because I am the only one." And I want to put this out, because after that some part of the press or some persons now are trying to use to tell that maybe Oswald was a man from the FBI or the CIA. I will go into that later on.
After that, after my conversation with de Brueys, I always was waiting that maybe someone will come to infiltrate my organization from the FBI, because I already was told by one of the FBI agent that they will try to infiltrate my organization.
Next thing is this: On August 2, 1963, I receive in my store--I have over there the office of the delegation too, the visit of two Cubans, who told me that they had already desert from one Anti-Castro training camp that was across Lake Pontchartrain here in New Orleans. Until that moment I did not know nothing about that Anti-Castro training camp here in the city, and they told me that that Anti-Castro training camp was a branch of the Christian Democratic Movement--that is another Anti-Castro organization-- and they told me that they had the fear inside the training camp that there was a Castro agent inside that training camp.
A few days before, too, the police found here in New Orleans about 1 mile from that training camp a big lot of ammunition and weapons and all those things, and when Oswald came to me on August 5 I had inside myself the feeling, well, maybe this is from the FBI, or maybe this is a Communist, because the FBI already had told me that maybe they will infiltrate my organization, but that feeling--I only had that feeling on August 5, because 4 days later I was convinced that Oswald was not an FBI agent and that he was a Pro-Castro agent.
When I told that to the press after the assassination, I saw in some magazines that I was not sure if he was an FBI or not, and that is not the truth, because on August 9, 3 months before the assassination, I was sure that he was a Pro-Castro and not an FBI. I want to have that clear.
Mr. LIEBELER. To summarize your statement, when Oswald came to see you on August 5----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were suspicious of him on two different counts?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. One, that he might possibly have been an infiltrator working for the FBI?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were worried about this because of what Agent de Brueys had said to you----
Mr. BRINGUIER. A year ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Almost a year prior to that time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were also concerned about the possibility that Oswald might have been a Communist or a Castro agent of some sort, who was trying to infiltrate your organization on behalf of that group?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Now that day, on August 5, I was talking in the store with one young American--the name of him is Philip Geraci--and 5 minutes later Mr. Oswald came inside the store. He start to look around, several articles, and he show interest in my conversation with Geraci. I was explaining to Geraci that our fight is a fight of Cubans and that he was too young, that if he want to distribute literature against Castro, I would give him the literature but not admit him to the fight.
At that moment also he start to agree with I, Oswald start to agree with my point of view and he show real interest in the fight against Castro. He told me that he was against Castro and that he was against communism. He told me--he asked me first for some English literature against Castro, and I gave him some copies of the Cuban report printed by the Cuban Student Directorate.
After that, Oswald told me that he had been in the Marine Corps and that he had training in guerrilla warfare and that he was willing to train Cubans to fight against Castro. Even more, he told me that he was willing to go himself to fight against Castro. That was on August 5.
I turned down his offer. I told him that I don't have nothing to do with military activities, that my only duties here in New Orleans are propaganda and information and not military activities. That was my answer to him.
He insisted, and he told me that he will bring to me next day one book as a present, as a gift to me, to train Cubans to fight against Castro.
Before he left----
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Geraci present throughout this entire conversation?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Geraci present throughout this entire conversation that you had with Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think so, yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a Mr. Blalock there?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Who?
Mr. LIEBELER. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k. Do you remember him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, there was another young boy. What was his name did you say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k.
Mr. BRINGUIER. I could not tell you, because I don't remember the name of the other boy who was there, but I think that I saw him just one time in my life. Geraci was with another person over there, another young boy, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention during this conversation that he could easily derail a train, for example, by securing and fastening a chain around the railroad track? Do you remember him mentioning something like that?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, you see; I do not exactly remember all the details, because we were talking for about--I believe about 1 hour, something like that, and at that moment I didn't know what was going to happen and I didn't pay too much attention to all the things that was being telling over there, but the result of the conversation were this that I am telling to you. Maybe he mentioned that. I could not tell to you that he mentioned that, because I am not--I don't remember. He could have mentioned that, because he was talking about the experience that he had in guerrilla warfare in the Marine Corps.
Before he left the store, he put his hand in the pocket and he offered me money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much did he offer you?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I don't know. As soon as he put the hand in the pocket and he told me, "Well, at least let me contribute to your group with some money," at that moment I didn't have the permit from the city hall here in New Orleans to collect money in the city, and I told him that I could not accept his money, and I told him that if he want to contribute to our group, he could send the money directly to the headquarters in Miami, because they had the authorization over there in Miami, and I gave him the number of the post office box of the organization in Miami.
And after that, I left the store, because I had to go to the bank to make the deposit, and Oswald was in the store talking to my brother-in-law--that is my partner in the store---Rolando Pelaez.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that P-e-l-a-e-z?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Oswald was talking to him for about half an hour, and later on when I came back from the bank I asked to my brother-in-law, "Well, what do you think about this guy who was here?"
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you his name was Lee Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; he told me that his name was Lee Oswald, and he told me one address in Magazine Street, but I didn't remember at that moment the number, and when I asked to my brother-in-law that, he told me that Oswald looked like really a smart person and really interested in the fight against communism, and he gave to my brother a good impression, and I told my brother that I could not trust him, because I didn't know what was inside of me, but I had some feeling that I could not trust him. I told that to my brother that day. Next day, on August 6, Oswald came back to the store, but I was not in the store at that moment, and he left with my brother-in-law a Guidebook for Marines for me with the name "L. H. Oswald" in the top of the first page. When I came back to the store, my brother-in-law gave to me the Guidebook for Marines. I was looking in the Guidebook for Marines. I found interest in it and I keep it, and later--I forgot about that just for 3 days more--on August 9 I was coming back to the store at 2 o'cl ock in the afternoon, and one friend of mine with the name of Celso Hernandez came to me and told me that in Canal Street there was a young man carrying a sign telling "Viva Fidel" in Spanish, and some other thing about Cuba, but my friend don't speak nothing in English, and the only thing that he understood was the "Viva Fidel" in Spanish. He told me that he was blaming the person in Spanish, but that the person maybe didn't understood what he was telling to him and he came to me to let me know what was going on over there.
At that moment was in the store another Cuban with the name of Miguel Cruz, and we went all three with a big sign that I have in the store in color. The sign is the Statue of Liberty with a knife in the back, and the hand, knifing her in the back, has the initials of the Soviet Union, and it said, "Danger. Only 90 Miles from the United States Cuba Lies in Chains." We pick up the sign and we went to Canal Street to find the guy.
We were walking all Canal Street to Rampart Street, but we could not find him. We were asking to different people in the street, but nobody saw him, nobody told us, Yes, I saw him, or, He went to this side. I decided to get a Canal streetcar to search for him, and we went in the Canal streetcar until about the 2700 block of Canal Street, and we came back in the Canal streetcar, but we could not find him at that moment.
I went back to the store, but just 3 or 4 minutes later one of my two friends, Miguel Cruz, came back running and told me that the guy was another time in Canal Street and that Celso was watching him over there.
I went over there with the sign another time, and I was surprised when I recognized that the guy with the sign hanging on the chest, said, "Viva Fidel" and "Hands off Cuba," was Lee Harvey Oswald. Until that moment I only knew Oswald as a guy who was offering his service to train Cubans, and when I saw that he was with a sign defending Fidel Castro and praising Fidel Castro, I became angry. That was in the 700 block of Canal Street just in front of the store where I was working my first year here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the International Trade Mart?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; Ward Discount House. He make another appearance in the International Trade Mart, later, and I will go into that, too.
When I saw that was Oswald and he recognized me, he was also surprised, but just for a few seconds. Immediately he smiled to me and he offered the hand to shake hands with me. I became more angry and I start to tell him that he don't have any face to do that, with what face he was doing that, because he had just came to me 4 days ago offering me his service and that he was a Castro agent, and I start to blame him in the street.
That was a Friday around 3 o'clock at this moment, and many people start to gather around us to see what was going on over there. I start to explain to the people what Oswald did to me, because I wanted to move the American people against him, not to take the fight for myself as a Cuban but to move the American people to fight him, and I told them that that was a Castro agent, that he was a pro-Communist, and that he was trying to do to them exactly what he did to us in Cuba, kill them and send their children to the execution wall. Those were my phrases at the moment.
The people in the street became angry and-they started to shout to him, "Traitor! Communist! Go to Cuba! Kill him!" and some other phrases that I do not know if I could tell in the record.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean they cursed at him, they swore at him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, some bad phrases, bad words.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. And at that moment, one of the Americans push him by one arm. One policeman came. When policeman came to me and asked me to keep walking and to let Oswald distribute his literature that he was handing out--he was handing out yellow leaflets of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans Chapter--and I told to the policeman that I was Cuban, I explained to him what Oswald did to me, and I told him that I don't know if was against the law, but that I will not leave that place until Oswald left and that I will make some trouble.
The policeman left, I believe going to some place to call the headquarters, and at one moment my friend Celso took the literature from Oswald, the yellow sheets, and broke it and threw it on the air. There were a lot of yellow sheets flying. And I was more angry, and I went near Oswald to hit him. I took my glasses off and I went near to him to hit him, but when he sensed my intention, he put his arm down as an X, like this here (demonstrating).
Mr. LIEBELER. He crossed his arms in front of him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, put his face and told me, "O.K. Carlos, if you want to hit me, hit me."
At that moment, that made me to reaction that he was trying to appear as a martyr if I will hit him, and I decide not to hit him, and just a few seconds later arrive two police cars, and one of the policeman over there was Lieutenant Gaillot, G-a-i-l-l-o-t. They put Oswald and my two friends in one of the police cars, and I went with Lieutenant Gaillot in the other police car to the First District of Police here in New Orleans.
When we were in the First District of Police, we were in the same room, one small room over there, and some of the policemen start to question Oswald if he was a Communist, what he was doing that, and all those things, and Oswald at that moment--that was in front of myself--was really cold blood. He was answering the questions that he would like to answer, and he was not nervous, he was not out of control, he was confident in himself at that moment over there.
One of the questions that they asked to him was about his organization, the Fair Play for Cuba, and I saw him showing some papers that--I believe they were the credentials of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee is a national organization, and when he told that, he was so kind of proud that it was not a small group but a national group all over the United States, and they asked of him the name of the members. No. Excuse me. Before they asked him if he has any office. He told them no, that there were--they were holding the meetings in different house, different homes, different members of the organization one night in one house, another night in another house, but in front of me he didn't told nothing about any office. When they asked him about the name of the members, he answered that he could not tell the name of the members in front of myself, because he will not like to let me know who were the ones who were helping him here in the city, and at that moment the police came out of the room and that was the last time that I saw him that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the police keep you in jail too?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, yes. I had to put--they took my fingerprints and my picture, and I have to put $25 bond that night with my two friends too, and I don't know, but after the assassination I heard that Oswald didn't put the $25 bond, that somebody went to the First District and make--I believe you call that an affidavit or something like that, and he will appear in court and he will not have to put the $25. He didn't put the $25 bond. That is what I heard. I didn't saw that. I am not sure of that. Next time that I saw him----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you appear in court later?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; later. That was August 12.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on Monday.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you pleaded not guilty to the offense that you were charged with?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right; that is right. And he plead guilty.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was there in court?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him in court?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is what you were just about to tell me?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. In August 12, we appear in the second municipal court in New Orleans. I came first with my friends, and there were some other Cubans over there, and I saw when Oswald came inside the court. I saw him. He went directly to sit down in the middle of the seat of the colored people. See, here in the court you have two sides, one for the white people and one for the colored people, and he walked directly inside of the colored people and he sat directly among them in the middle, and that made me to be angry too, because I saw that he was trying to win the colored people for his side. When he will appear in the court, he will defend Fidel Castro, he will defend the Fair Play for Cuba, and the colored people will feel good for him, and that is a tremendous work of propaganda for his cause. That is one of the things that made me to think that he was a really smart guy and not a nut.
When the judge call us, he plead guilty, I plead not guilty, and my friends plead not guilty. I brought the Marines guidebook, the guidebook for Marines, and I explain to the judge that the incident was originated when Oswald tried to infiltrate the organization and that if he will not do that, I will not have any fight with him in the street, and I showed to him the guidebook for Marines with the name of Oswald on the top of the first page, and the judge dismisses the charges against us and fined him $10.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fined Oswald $10?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Ten dollars, that is right. In the court was at that moment one cameraman from WDSU, and he make he did an interview to Oswald after the trial and he took some movies of ourselves, and later I receive one phone call from Bill Stuckey. I had talk to Stuckey the day of the trial in the morning. I met him in the bank and I explained to him what was going on in the second municipal court, and he was the one who send the reporter over there to the trial. I am not sure if was the same day or next day of the trial Stuckey called me asking for Oswald's address. I get the affidavit from the court dissertation, and I give to him the address in dissertation, and I asked him why he was looking for that. He told me that he was going to make an interview to Oswald. I disagreed with him at that moment, I told him that I was thinking that it was not good to let a Communist go to radio station and tell all his lies, because there are many people who understand what was happening in Cuba, but there are many people who do n ot know exactly what is happening in Cuba. Stuckey offered me to make another interview to me next Saturday in his program, but I didn't agree with that neither, and I asked him to arrange a radio debate, because in that way we could tell our point of view at the same moment in the same place.
On August 16 another friend of mine left to me a message in the store that Oswald was another time handing out pro-Castro propaganda for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, this time in front of the International Trade Mart here in New Orleans.
I wasn't in the store at that moment, and when I came back and I received the message, I went to the International Trade Mart, but I could not find Oswald, he had already left, and I was talking later on with my friend, and the information that I received was that he was over there with two other persons. Later I saw the picture of those two persons, and they have a Latin aspect. I do not know if they are Latin Americans or not, but at least there is one who is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did somebody show you pictures of these individuals?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who did?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The Secret Service tried to see if I know them, if I could identify them.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] I show you a picture, which has previously been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit 458--A," and I ask you if that is one of the pictures or a picture like the one the Secret Service showed to you.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] I show you another picture, which has previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-B."
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Indicating.] See this guy, see this Japanese? He is from the Kasuga Co. here in New Orleans. He had the office in International Trade Mart.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you pointed to the person standing immediately behind and to Oswald's right with his hands up behind his head?
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Demonstrating.] That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is on Exhibit 453-A. Now do you recognize the person with the "X" over his head?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; that was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now there is a person standing to Oswald's left wearing a white shirt and facing the same direction that Oswald was facing, and I will indicate that person with a pen mark on the picture. [Marking photograph.] I have drawn an arrow pointing to the person to which I refer, and I ask you if you recognize that person.
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't recognize him. I believe that this is one of the pictures that I saw before, but I don't recognize him. For me, he looked like as a Latin American.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now in the far foreground of this picture, there is a man who has been marked with a green mark, just one mark, and we are referring at this point to Exhibit 453-A. Do you recognize that person?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that another one of the individuals to which you referred as having a Latin-type complexion, or is it not?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir. I believe no; this is not the one that I said.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have one other picture here of this scene which has not previously been marked, and I will show that picture to you and ask you if you can identify anybody in that picture with the exception of Oswald, of course.
[Exhibiting photograph to witness.]

Mr. BRINGUIER. The only one that I could recognize here is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he is the person with the "Hands Off Cuba"?
Mr. BRINGUIER. "Hands Off Cuba" leaflets in his hand, the first one in front, just in the middle of the picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking photograph.] I have marked the picture I just referred to as "Exhibit No. 1" to your deposition.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Do you want that I sign the picture?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Would you initial the picture for identification purposes?
(The wittness complied.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you.
Mr. BRINGUIER. You want that I sign these too?
Mr. LIEBELER. No. We have identified those as Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and 453-B, and you have noted that they are----
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned that there were two different people that appeared to you to be Latin people.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Sure. This one that I see here [indicating], this is the one looked like to me a Latin, but, if I am not wrong, somebody showed me another picture where is another guy distributing the leaflets. I believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a Secret Service man or an FBI agent? Do you know?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think that was a Secret Service man. Maybe I am wrong. I saw those days a lot of pictures; but--let me tell you something else: If my opinion is not wrong, if I am not mistaken this moment, I think that the other man was maybe in some kind of Bermuda shorts or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any pictures in my possession showing that. The Commission has requested the actual film, the TV film itself, to be delivered to will send you a picture of it.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Okay.
Mr. LIEBELER. And I will also speak to the Secret Service about it and see if we can find such a picture. According to The Secret Service, one of these gentlemen has been identified as Mr. Charles Hall Steele, Jr.
Mr. BRINGUIER. He was working in the Pap's Super Market here in New Orleans. I believe so, that he was working over there. There was one Cuban who, when saw his face in the television, called me to tell me that, and I called the Secret Service and let them know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Steele will be in the office here this afternoon, so we will have an opportunity to determine if it is the same man that was marked with the arrow in Pizzo Exhibit 453-A or not.
So you went over to the International Trade Mart on this day in an attempt to find Oswald, but you were not successful? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. After that my friend showed to me one of the leaflets that Oswald was handing out in front of the International Trade Mart, the yellow leaflets, and I found something interesting at this point. There was a difference among the leaflets that he was handing out on August 16 in the International Trade Mart and the leaflets that he was handing out on Canal Street on August 9.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the difference?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The leaflet he was handing out on Canal Street August 9 didn't have his name of Oswald, at least the ones that I saw. They have the name A. J. Hidell, and one post office box here in New Orleans and the address, and the leaflets that he was handing out on August 16 have the name L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Street. In the yellow leaflets he was offering free literature and lectures, and he was asking to the people to join the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and at the end he said, "Everyone welcome." My friend asked to me if I think that it would be good that he will go to Oswald's house posing as a pro-Castro and try to get as much information as possible from Oswald. I told him yes; and that night he went to Oswald's house with the leaflets.
Mr. LIEBELER. What day was this now? Do you remember?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 16. I believe so. I think that. I am sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the same day that----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That he was distributing the leaflets.
Mr. LIEBELER. The second time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The second time. The first time was a Friday, August 9, and the second time I think that was another Friday, August 16.
My friend went to Oswald's house and he was talking to Oswald for about 1 hour inside his house, in the porch of the house, and there was when we found that Oswald had some connection with Russia, or something like that, because the daughter came to the porch and Oswald spoke to her in Russian, and my friend heard that language and he asked Oswald if that was Russian, and Oswald told him yes, that he was attending Tulane University and that he was studying language, that that was the reason why he speak Russian. He give to my friend an application to become a member of the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
After the assassination my friend turned [over] to the Secret Service one copy of the application. I have here one, one copy [producing document]. This is a photocopy. My friend keep the original.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have another copy of this?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; that is the only one that I have. He has the original. If you want to keep that, for me it is no trouble, because always I could take more copies.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see. Your friend still has the original?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The original; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's mark this one as "Exhibit 2" to your deposition. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we asked Mr. Bringuier to initial a picture which we discussed before on the record, and that picture, which is a picture of a street scene in front of the International Trade Mart has been marked "Exhibit 1" to Mr. Bringuier's deposition taken here in New Orleans on April 7, 1964. We shall now mark as "Exhibit 2" to that deposition a photocopy of an application to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans, La., which Mr. Bringuier says is a copy of an application which was given to a friend of his whose name we have agreed not to indicate on the record, given by Lee Oswald on or about August 16, 1963. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit No. 2 and I ask you to do the same, if you would.
[The witness complied.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Please go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. At that conversation Oswald was defending Fidel Castro, and he advised to my friend that the United States don't have the right to invade or to overthrow any other government, and that if the United States will do that to Cuba, he will fight defending Castro, because Castro was right.
I gave the copy of the transcription of the conversation with my friend to the Secret Service the days after the Kennedy assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the day that you and your friend discussed this after your friend returned from Oswald's and you made a recording of that conversation?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Not a recording, not a recording exactly; but when my friend came back from Oswald's house, he told me what happened over there and he was trying to contact some authority to let him go deeper inside the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your friend was?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; my friend was trying to contact some authorities, because he didn't want to be involved in that matter without the knowledge of the U.S. Government. We also discussed this conversation in front of Ed Butler.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who?
Mr. BRINGUIER. "Ed Butler, Edward Butler, for the Information Council of the Americas, the day or 2 days previous to the debate when my friend and myself went to Butler's office, and my friend was explaining to Butler all the conversation and the point of view of Oswald, and the matter that Oswald spoke in Russian, and at that moment my friend had found that Oswald had been in Russia and that he was married to one Russian girl. We gave all that information to Butler and he was trying to contact some person, somebody in Washington, to get more the background of Oswald before the debate.
After that, the last day that I saw Oswald was August 21, the day of the debate. I went to WDSU radio about 5:30, 30 minutes before the time of the debate. When I went to the lobby, there were already there Bill Stuckey and Lee Harvey Oswald. I shake hands with Stuckey. Stuckey indicate to me that Oswald was there. Oswald stand up and came to me and shake hands with me. I was talking to Stuckey for a few minutes, and after that Stuckey left the lobby and went inside the WDSU radio station to check--I believe that was to check in what room we will have the debate. I was talking to Oswald that day before the debate started. I was trying to be as friendly to him as I could. I really believe that the best thing that I could do is to get one Communist out of the Communist Party and put him to work against communism, because he know what communism mean, and I told to Oswald that I don't have nothing against him in the personal way, just in the ideologic way. I told him that for me it was impossible to see one Ameri can being a Communist, because communism is trying to destroy the United States, and that if any moment when he will be at bed he will start to think that he can do something good for his country, for his family, and for himself, he could come to me, because I would receive him, because I repeat to him I didn't have nothing against him in the personal way. He smiled to me. He told me he answered me that he was in the right side, the correct side, and that I was in the wrong side, and that he was doing his best. That were his words at that moment.
Before we went inside the room of the debate, he saw my guidebook for Marines that I was carrying with me, because I did not know what will happen in the debate and I will have to have that weapon with me to destroy him personally as a traitor if he doing something wrong in the debate. When he saw the guidebook for Marines, he smiled to me, and he told me, "Well, listen, Carlos, don't try to do an invasion with that guidebook for Marines, because that is an old one and that will be a failure." That was his joke in that moment. After that we went to the debate, and I think that you have the whole history of the debate, you have the transcription and everything, [so] that I don't have to go inside that, because that is subjective, not objective. You have the objective, and that is the debate.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is right. We do have a transcript and we listened to it on the tape last night over at the television station too.
Mr. BRINGUIER. And there is something that I want to show you too. I told to you about the training camp that were across the Lake Pontchartrain.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Producing newspaper.] At the beginning of August in the Diario Las Americas from Miami for September 4---
Mr. LIEBELER. For September 4, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. [Indicating photograph.] This is the spy who was inside the training camp. The Christian Democratic Movement turned him over to the FBI, and the FBI was questioning him in Miami. The Christian Democratic Movement found a letter, according to this information, from this guy directed to Carlos Lechuga, former Cuban Ambassador to Mexico and now Cuban Ambassador to the United Nations in New York. In that letter the spy, Fernando Fernandez, was warning Lechuga that they have to be alert from that date to August 8, and the day that Oswald came trying to infiltrate my organization was on August 5. This sounds for me strange in all this matter.
[Indicating.] Here is another interview from Fernandez here 3 days later.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a copy of the same newspaper but for the date of September 6, 1963, on the front page of which----
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Indicating.] Here. "Fernando Fernandez is in favor of coexistence with the Communist regime of Castro." That is the title in Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see if I can understand what you are saying. You say that Fernandez wrote a letter to Lechuga?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Fernandez wrote a letter to Lechuga in Mexico.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lechuga is a member of the Castro government?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is now Ambassador to the United Nations?
Mr. BRINGUIER. In New York; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fernandez is the person who was the Castro spy who had infiltrated the training camp in Louisiana?
Mr. BRINGUIER. For the Christian Democratic Movement here in Louisiana.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now the Christian Democratic Movement is--what? Pro-Castro?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Anti-Castro.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is an anti-Castro organization?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; they were training Cubans over here to make a commando action against Castro, but they find out that there was a Castro spy inside the training camp, and they went back to Miami with the people and with him, and they turn him over to the FBI. I think that after that the leader for the Christian Democratic Movement---or that the FBI didn't found nothing, because was not against the law to spy inside an anti-Castro organization. It was against the law to spy inside the U.S. Government but not inside the anti-Castro organization. And my feeling--and, this is the question that I am asking myself--in New Orleans we are about 900 miles from Miami. In Miami is where the headquarters of all the anti-Castro groups. I could not find any reason for Oswald to come to me and offer me his service to train Cubans in guerrilla warfare at the same moment when there was a secret anti-Castro training camp in New Orleans and a Castro spy was inside that training camp. That for me is--because, if he was willing to infilt rate one active organization, he will go directly to Miami and he will offer his service over there in Miami, but not in New Orleans where it is not publicly known that there was something going on at that moment. I believe that that was the only time here in New Orleans that there was something like that, and it was a coincidence. And there is another coincidence too for me, and that is that when Oswald left the city he went to Mexico, and the letter from Fernandez that was intercepted here was to Mexico too, and Oswald visit the Cuban consulate in Mexico, and the Fernandez letter was to the Cuban Ambassador to Mexico. For me, that is a big doubt.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. BRINGUIER. You see, after the debate, the same night of the debate, I went to the radio station here in New Orleans and the local papers and the United Press International office, and I gave a press release. If you want a copy, I could give you a copy. I gave a copy to the Secret Service.
The most interesting thing is the four things that I asked to the Secret Service of New Orleans. I think that this is the second one where I said, "Write to your Congressman asking for a full investigation of Mr. Lee H. Oswald, a confessed Marxist" [producing document]. And that was 3 months before the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have another copy of this?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I have the original of that. You can have that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked a copy of the press release distributed to the various communications media here in New Orleans, on August 16, 1963----
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, August 21.
Mr. LIEBELER. August 21, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 21, the night of the debate.
Mr. LIEBELER. I mark it as "Exhibit No. 3" to your deposition, and I have initialed it. Would you initial it?
[The witness complied.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go over some of this testimony that you have just given to see if I understand. Mr. Fernandez wrote to Mr. Lechuga a letter in which Fernandez said that we--meaning the Castro people?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Must be on guard up until August 8?
Mr. BRINGUIER. August 8, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that Oswald had come to your store or offices on August 5, 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald came to you offering to assist in the military training of Cubans?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, there was, in fact, a training camp near New Orleans----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. For the training of people for military action against Castro?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was not public knowledge at that time?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you are tying this up in your mind by considering the possibility that Oswald was, in fact, a Castro agent?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did know about the existence of this training camp, because Mr. Fernandez had already himself infiltrated that training camp?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that Fernandez had told Oswald about the existence of this camp and had asked Oswald himself to try to infiltrate that camp for your organization?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Excuse me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the only thing that I don't believe is that Fernandez had told directly to Oswald. What I believe is that Fernandez had informed some people outside the United States, and these people had informed Oswald and had gave to Oswald the order to try to infiltrate the Cuban group here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Fernandez was, on this theory, aware of that and was aware of approximately the time Oswald would make this attempt, and, therefore, indicated to Lechuga that there would be some danger of Oswald being discovered as an attempted infiltrator?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I beg pardon? I don't understand the words.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand, part of the hypothesis here, the theory, relates to the fact that Fernandez said to Lechuga, "We must be careful, or we will be in danger,"--up until about August 8. Now does that statement have anything to do with Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, what I think is this: He send that letter to Lechuga, and on August 5 Oswald came to me offering his service to train Cubans, all in the same period of time. Something that never was happening here in New Orleans, that there was a secret anti-Castro training camp, and the chairman of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee trying to join the Cuban group here in New Orleans. Those are the facts. I don't want to tell something that I am not sure about. I just want to show you that tremendous coincidence or that connection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now it doesn't seem likely, does it, that Oswald would go around handing out literature in the streets like he did if he was actually attempting to infiltrate the anti-Castro movement?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Remember that that was after I turned down his offer and after I told him that I don't have nothing to do with military activities and that here there is nothing, and that I turned down completely him. He didn't went openly to do that before the attempt to infiltrate the training camp; he went openly to do that after he was turned down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any conceivable association between anybody in the pro-Castro movement and Oswald that could have acted as a source of information to Oswald---conducted the orders to him?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you have any way of obtaining information of that sort as a result of your anti-Castro activities and contacts? If there were such a person as this, do you think you would be likely to know about it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Beg your pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. If there were such a person, that is to say, some agent of the Castro movement who had been working with Oswald, do you think that you would have had access to that information or you would have been likely to find out about it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. You see, that is a hard question, because here in the city you have a lot of persons. There are some who are pro-Castro, there are many who are anti-Castro. Even among the Cubans you could have some Castro agents here in the city and you could not have control of everybody.
But there is something else: The owner of the Havana Bar--the Havana Bar is located in 117 Decatur Street, just two door or three door from my store--the owner of the Havana Bar is a Cuban, and he and one of the employees over there, gave the information to me after Kennedy's assassination--not before that Oswald went to the Havana Bar one time. He asked for some lemonade. He was with one Mexican at that moment, and when Oswald was drinking the lemonade, he start to say that, sure, the owner of that place had to be a Cuban capitalistic, and that he argue about the price of the lemonade. He was telling that that was too much for a lemonade, and he feel bad at that moment, Oswald feel bad at that moment--he had some vomits and he went out to the sidewalk to vomit outside on the sidewalk. These persons here from the Havana Bar told me that the guy, the Mexican, who was with Oswald, was the same one that one time the FBI told them that if they will see him, call them immediately because that was a pro-Communist. I remember that was between August 15 and August 30 was that period of time. I could not locate that because I start to find out all these things after the Kennedy assassination, not before, because before I did not found any connection. They did not told nothing of this before to me. Between the 15th and the 30th the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar came to my store asking me to call the FBI, because he already saw one automobile passing by the street with two Mexicans, one of them the one who had been with Oswald in the bar, and he told me that the FBI, one agent from the FBI, had been in the bar and told them that if they will see those two guy to call them. This person, the brother of the owner of the bar, he gave to me at that moment the number of the plate of the automobile, but he didn't get from what State. I called the FBI, because this person don"t know to speak English. That was the reason why he came to me. I talked to the person in the FBI. I explained what was going on, but looked like thi s person on the telephone didn't know nothing about that matter and he took the--I believe that he took the notes of what I was telling to him, and that was all.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did this happen, before the assassination or after?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I called before the assassination, but I didn't know that that was any connection with Oswald, because they didn't told me at the Havana Bar that one of them was the one that was with Oswald in the Havana Bar, and learn that Oswald was one day over there with one Mexican, the brother of the owner told me, "Yes. You remember those two Mexicans? One of them was the one who was with Oswald in the bar."
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, tell me approximately when you called the FBI about this.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, that was between the 15th of August and the 30th of August, because that was when the owner of the Havana Bar was on vacation. The brother was the one who was at the front of the business at that moment, and we figure that the owner of the Havana Bar went on vacation from August 15 to August 30 and that had to happen in that period of time.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, some time between August 15 and August 30 the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told you that he had seen a man that had been formerly identified to him by the FBI, and the FBI had asked this man, the brother of the owner of the bar, to notify them if he saw this man?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had seen this man together with another man driving in an automobile somewhere here in New Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. But the question is this: The FBI was according to the information that the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar told me, the FBI was looking for both men, not for one.
Mr. LIEBELER. For both of them?
Mr. BRINGUIER. For both of them, but just one of them was in the Havana Bar with Oswald, not both.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the brother of the owner of the Havana Bar?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Ruperto Pena, and the one who saw Oswald in the bar--that was the one who served the lemonade to him--Evaristo Rodriguez.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you report this to the FBI when you talked to them after the assassination?
Mr. BRINGUIER. After the assassination?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. I report this to the Secret Service. I believe so. [Producing document.] I have here a copy of the letter that I send to the headquarters on November 27, 1963, informing here to the headquarters the information that I gave to the Secret Service about the man who was working in the Pap's Supermarket, that he was going to Delgado Trades School, I believe with the name of Charles, and I have here that I gave to the Secret Service this information during that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. May I see that? [Document exhibited to counsel.]
Mr. LIEBELER. It is in Spanish?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. You have given me a draft of a document entitled "Open Letter to People of New Orleans," which I have marked "Exhibit No. 4" to your deposition taken here in New Orleans on April 7, 1964, and I have initialed it in the lower right hand corner. Would you initial it, please?
Mr. BRINGUIER. [Complying.] And you agree to send me back the original?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. I will take this and have a copy made, and I will send the original back to you. I have your address on my copy here of Mr. Rankin's letter, which is 107 Decatur Street, New Orleans, La. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct. That is my store. You can send the mail to there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Correct. Now "Exhibit No. 4," as I understand it, is a draft of a letter that you proposed to distribute here in New Orleans some time after the debate that you had with Oswald on August 21, 1963. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. It, in fact, was never distributed because you----
Mr. BRINGUIER. I went to the city hall, and they informed me I think the person that informed me maybe I am wrong--is Mr. Diboll--I had that name here wrote on the back---and he gave to me the information that it had to be 3 1/2 by 5 1/2 and this was not possible to distribute in that size, and I decided not to distribute.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you prepared this some time during August in 1963?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was done prior to the assassination?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. Do you have any information from Oswald going to Cuba?
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean--has it ever appeared that Oswald actually went to Cuba? Not as far as I know.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well [producing magazine], there is here in this magazine this is Bohemia International--this is printed in Venezuela--February 2, 1964 there is an article by Dr. Herminio Portell-Vila. He is a professor of history of Cuba, Dr. Herminio Portell-Vila, and an old diplomat from Cuba. I think he is living in Washington, D.C. And he said here [exhibiting page] that in one speech from Castro on November 27, 1963, in the University of Havana, Castro said--and I quote: "The first time that Oswald was in Cuba"--and that immediately he cut the speech, he changed and he talked of something else. Maybe you have a record of that speech delivered from Castro in the University of Havana and you could check if Castro said that 5 days after the assassination or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. And what kind of magazine is this Bohemia International?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Bohemia was the biggest weekly magazine in Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the Castro regime?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. And during the Castro regime they were defending Castro a lot of time, but in 1960 the director, the editor, went into exile, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. And he now publishes this magazine from Venezuela?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right. He was publishing that from New York about one year, I believe, sir, and then at a later date moved to Venezuela, but that is circulating here inside the United States.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have referred to an issue of that magazine of February 2, 1964, and to an article that begins on page 16. What is the title of the article?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Disfraz. That is mask, costume. That says "change of----
Mr. LIEBELER. Change of costume?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this is an article about Lee Oswald and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the caption under the picture of Lee Oswald, as it appears on page 17, reads what in English? Would you translate that for us?
Mr. BRINGUIER. "When Castro in his speech of November 27, 1963, at the University of Havana said literally that the first time that Oswald was in Cuba,' he went out of his tongue, that is literally, under the influence of cognac---Peralta, that is a brand of cognac--'he told something that is really important'"
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what it says?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is what it says here, and if you want to take the name of the person who wrote it----
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. The article was written by----
Mr. BRINGUIER. I don't know if you have a copy of----
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to put that on the record, that story you told me just a minute ago?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Last January I went to Miami, Fla., where I was talking to Dr. Emilio Nunez-Portuondo, former Cuban Ambassador to the United Nations, and he told me that just after the assassination of President Kennedy he received a request from one of the biggest Mexican newspapers asking him for some public declarations of opinion about the assassination. He sent that day a letter with his press release inside, addressed to one friend of him who is living in Mexico City and his friend deliver that press release to the Mexico City newspaper in Mexico. In that release, Mr. Nunez-Portuondo blamed Fidel Castro as the "intellectual murderer of President Kennedy."
Dr. Portuondo told me that the same day that that information appear in the paper, his friend suffer an attempt to be kidnaped. There went about eight men to this man house, and when they were trying to put him inside one automobile, at the same moment pass a reporter---I believe that was from the AP--and when the reporter saw what was going on, he start to ask for help. At that moment the police came and started to question the eight men, and, according to Nunez-Portuondo, they identified themselves as members of the Secret Service of the Mexican Government, and Mr. Portuondo's friend was beaten so hard that he had to go to a hospital for 4 days with a broken leg, just because he was the one who deliver Nunez-Portuondo's statement to the Mexican newspaper blaming Fidel Castro for the murder of President Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to go back briefly to the letter from Fernandez to Lechuga which you indicated had been intercepted.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What letter is this and who intercepted it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, I believe that that letter was intercepted here in New Orleans when Fernandez was sending the letter to Mexico. I didn't have too much contact with that deal, because that was for another organization, not my organization, and I didn't want to be involved, in that that maybe was against the law. I always try to be out of----
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean this letter was intercepted by some other Cuban organization?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes; for the same organization who had the training camp.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was intercepted while it was in the U.S. mails?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think so. I think that he gave that letter to somebody to drop in the mail, and that somebody that was suspicious about him, they opened the letter and they found what the letter was telling. I don't know what they do with the letter. I don't know nothing else. I know about what is said in the paper. I know that they dismantle all the training camp here in New Orleans. They went back to Miami. I paid the trip for two of them to go back to Miami. Excuse me. I did not pay the trip, I collect some monies among some Cubans, and we paid the trip. I don't want to set something on the record that is not----
Mr. LIEBELER. Does it say something about the letter in these newspaper stories that you have referred me to?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Does it refer to the letter in these newspaper stories?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, is covering the whole history about it [producing newspaper].
Mr. LIEBELER. These newspaper stories are, as we have indicated, in the Diario Las Americas, issues of September 4, 1963, and September 6, 1963. Do you have copies of these or do you want to keep these?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think they are the only ones we have.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BRINGUIER. I will tell something else to you: This information--they are taking this information from the Miami Herald.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring now----
Mr. BRINGUIER. That was the one who interview Fernando Fernandez, the Miami Herald made an interview to Fernando Fernandez. I already asked to some person in Miami to send me the Miami Herald, from September 3 to September 10 to try to get all the information directly from the Miami Herald but at this moment I only have the Spanish publication over there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where Fernandez is now?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't know where he is. He was telling in that interview that he was willing to go to Cuba, to go back to Cuba. I don't know whether he is in Cuba now or not. Excuse me. Did you check any other trip from Oswald to Mexico previously to the trip 3 weeks before the assassination? Because I think that you have to know sure that Mr. Stuckey, Bill Stuckey, made another interview to Oswald, and he had the tape of that interview. I have one tape of that interview. I think that that interview was made on August 17, 1963, and at that interview Oswald said, answering to one question, that he had been in Mexico, and in all the magazines that I am reading they are talking about Oswald was born in New Orleans, he went to New York, he came back to New Orleans, he went to the Marines, he went to Russia, he came back, he he went to Dallas, he came to New Orleans back, he went to Mexico 3 weeks before the assassination, but I don't read in any newspaper or any magazine talking about some other trip from Oswald to Mex ico, and if you have that tape, in Oswald's own voice, he admitted that he had been to Mexico before August 17.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, Mr. Stuckey will be here this afternoon. We will ask him about that.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Thank you.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back briefly to this story of Mr. Pena telling you that he had seen Oswald in the Havana Bar with this other Mexican, did the FBI ever talk to Mr. Pena about this? Do you know?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I don't know. I know that the owner of the Havana Bar, in my opinion, is a good person, but he says that always when he talk to the FBI in the bar or something like that, that he lose customers, because, you see, to those bars sometime there are people, customers, who don't like to see FBI around there, and he says that always he lose customers when the FBI start to go over there, and sometime he become angry and sometime he don't want to talk about. I am sure that the brother, Ruperto---I am sure that he will tell everything that he knows.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to whether the report that Ruperto made about Oswald being in the bar was an accurate report?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the question is this: Was not only Ruperto told me that Oswald went to Havana Bar. The one who told me that was Evaristo Rodriguez, and I never saw Evaristo Rodriguez telling lies or never--Evaristo is quiet person, he is young, married, but he is quiet. He is not an extrovert, that is, not a----
Mr. LIEBELER. He wouldn't be likely to make this story up?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No; I don't believe so.
(At this point, Mr. Jenner entered the room to obtain photographs, and there ensued an off the record discussion about the photographs.)

Mr. BRINGUIER. I remember that when somebody--I believe that was the Secret Service showed to me the other picture that I tell you, that they were--they had already identified one and they were trying to identify the other one. I am sure that there were two, and no doubt about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you didn't recognize any of the----
Mr. BRINGUIER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Individuals in the pictures that we showed you previously, Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and 453-B, and Exhibit No. 1 to your own deposition?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. The only person you recognized in those pictures was Lee Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. That is right, that is right, and the guy I showed you, the one from Kasuga, the Japanese.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] Now I show you Exhibit No. 1 to the affidavit of Jesse Garner, and I ask you if you recognize the individual in that picture.

Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And who is that?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, the picture look like that is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it shows him handing out a leaflet?
Mr. BRINGUIER. "Hands Off Cuba."
Mr. LIEBELER. Reading off "Hands Off Cuba," does it not? Does that leaflet look similar to the leaflet you saw Oswald handing out?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you recognize that man obviously as Oswald, don't you?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point, but if you have anything else that you want to add, why, you can go right ahead and do it. You have done most of the testifying without my help and you have done very well.
Mr. BRINGUIER. Thank you. I don't know if you had already the information that the Cuban Student Directorate Headquarters in Miami gave to the press on January 31 about Jack Ruby's second trip to Cuba in 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with it offhand. What is it?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, you could check the name and the date of the newspaper. It is the same "Diario Las Americas" from Miami, February 1, 1964, information from the Cuban Student Directorate Headquarters in Miami telling that Jack Ruby went to Cuba at the end of 1962 through Mexico, and he was in Cuba until the beginning of 1963. After that I talked to them by long-distance telephone, long-distance call, and they informed me that they already have turned over to the FBI all the proof about this trip from Ruby going to Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the person that you spoke to in Miami?
Mr. BRINGUIER. The person to whom I spoke in Miami, his name is Joaquin Martinez de Pinillos.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he indicated that the information concerning Ruby's trip had already been given to the FBI?
Mr. BRINGUIER. To the FBI. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think we should know about at this moment?
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Back on the record. Going back briefly to the time at which you and Oswald and your other friends were arrested and taken to the police station here in New Orleans on August 9, 1963, were you interviewed at the police station by any agent of the FBI?

Mr. BRINGUIER. Well, there were two plain-clothing agents that identified (themselves) as a member of the FBI, I believe, and they were questioning us on the generalities of Oswald and all, and when I was explaining to them and all, they had some kind of confusion sometime because they didn't know if we were Communists, and I had to explain to them three or four times that we were not the Communists and that Oswald was the one that was doing that in favor of Castro.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether they interviewed Oswald?
Mr. BRINGUIER. I think. I thought that they interviewed Oswald, but not in front of me. They were talking to him in front of me, but when they were ready to interview Oswald, they moved to other place to interview him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had to point out to them several times that it was Oswald who was the Castro provocateur, so to say, and not you? Is that correct?
Mr. BRINGUIER. Yes, sir; because they were asking to us in one way as if we were Communists or pro-Castro, and I had to explain to them in three or four different times that we were Cubans but we were not pro-Castro and that we were the ones in the fight against Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions at this time, Mr. Bringuier. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add now--can you think of anything else?
Mr. BRINGUIER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for spending the time that you have with us and for cooperating with us the way you have. You have been very helpful. On behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you very much

 

.