TESTIMONY OF ALVIN R. BROCK

The testimony of Alvin R. Brock was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Alvin R. Brock, the patrolman, Dallas police department. Mr. Brock, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Brock. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you Mr. Brock, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Brock, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, to Chief Curry, asking him to make his men available. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice if he wishes to do so. And now I ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?
Mr. BROCK. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand then and raise your right hand so that I may swear you ? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BROCK. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name?
Mr. BROCK. Alvin R. Brock.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Mr. BROCK. Twenty-five.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mr. BROCK. 207 East Place, Ennis, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?
Mr. BROCK. Patrolman, for the city of Dallas, police department.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the Dallas police department?
Mr. BROCK. Three and a half years.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that time, how did you make your living?
Mr. BROCK. Worked as assembler in aircraft.
Mr. HUBERT. Assembler--aircraft--what?
Mr. BROCK. As an assembler of aircrafts.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work at that?
Mr. BROCK. Once I worked for approximately a year, 10 months, Temco, and before that approximately a year and a half at Chance Vought.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess prior to that you were going to school?
Mr. BROCK. Prior to that I worked at Lone Star Gas for approximately a year, and high school before that.
Mr. HUBERT. You graduated from high school?
Mr. BROOK. Yes, air.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what particular part of the police department are you in?
Mr. BROOK. Radio patrol.
Mr. HUBERT. That is under what captain?
Mr. BROCK. I work for Captain Talbert.
Mr. HUBERT. Cecil Talbert?
Mr. BROCK. I don't know his first name.
Mr. HUBERT. Cecil Talbert. And are you in one of the prowl cars?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

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Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about November the 24th. What time did you go on duty that day?
Mr. BROCK. 7:30 a.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Then your shift would have ended---
Mr. BROCK. 3:30.
Mr. HUBERT. P.M.?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you report at 7:30?
Mr. BROCK. Well, assembly room, I guess is what you call it. We all reported there.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Dallas police department?
Mr. BROCK. In the basement of the city hall; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you are assigned to your cars and go cruising?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had communication by radio, two men---
Mr. BROCK. We were working two men.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you that day?
Mr. BROCK. M. L. Wise.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually get out on the streets and start prowling?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. BROCK. We received a call from the dispatcher to call 511, that is radio patrol office.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you do that ?
Mr. BROCK. And we called them and they advised us to come on down there as soon as we could.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get down there?
Mr. BROCK. It was a few minutes after 9. I don't know exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. What prowl car were you driving? Do you remember the number of it?
Mr. BROCK. We were working squad 71. That is the number of the squad, not the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a different car number every day or drive the same car usually?
Mr. BROCK. You mean the same
Mr. HUBERT. Talking about squad 71--I mean, the automobile has a number on it, doesn't it?
Mr. BROCK. Yes; I don't recall what the number--we usually have the same one.
Mr. HUBERT. Same car? What did you do? Park your car in the
Mr. BROCK. We took it down there and parked it in the alley there just north of the--- on Commerce at Pearl Street, and walked on down to the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. You parked it on Pearl Street, or in the alley?
Mr. BROCK. In the alley, Just north of Commerce, just off Pearl Street.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the alleyway that runs from Pearl up to the back of the city hall building and then makes a right to Main Street?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Has the form of an L-shape, is that right?
Mr. BROCK. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You put it in that alleyway?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive it all the way up that alleyway up there?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir; it was down close to the street there.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you walked up the alley?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir; we walked back out on the street and then down to the building and then-
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't go in the building through the back door.
Mr. BROCK. NO, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Through that back door?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you try the back door?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir.

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Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all parked your car near Pearl Street and didn't even walk up or ride up the alley at all?
Mr. BROCK. Oh, no; we walked back out and went down the street sidewalk.
Mr. HUBERT. Went down Pearl Street to Commerce?
Mr. BROCK. Went down Commerce, cut across a parking lot to Commerce, down to the city hall that way.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was about what time?
Mr. BROCK. A few minutes after 9.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. BROCK. I don't know exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you report to? What did you do?
Mr. BROCK. We reported to 511 patrol office, to Lieutenant Pierce.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Rio Pierce, I think you call him?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What orders did he give you?
Mr. BROCK. He told us just to sit down there for a few minutes, until they decided what they wanted us to do. Then about 9:20, I guess it was, he told me to go down to the basement and report to Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Putnam.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Patrick Dean, I think?
Mr. BROCK. P. T. Dean.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you report to him?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. BROCK. Sergeant Putnam assigned me on what they call the elevator area there, there in the basement at the east end of the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time were you posted there?
Mr. BROCK. It would be about 9:30, I would imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your orders?
Mr. BROCK. To not let anyone in except police officers and members of the press.
Mr. HUBERT. Into what?
Mr. BROCK. Into the basement area.
Mr. HUBERT. From what?
Mr. BROCK. Well, about from anywhere see there was an elevator there that goes to the next floor on it--in the municipal building.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the service elevator, are you?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; there is a service elevator, and the other elevators, they 'were not working, but the service elevator was the one.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know they weren't working?
Mr. BROCK. Well, I presumed they wasn't. They never did open the time I was--actual time I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of a fire staircase in that general area?
Mr. BROCK. There was a, I believe it is, right to the right around the corner from the elevators on the
Mr. HUBERT. Be to your
Mr. BROCK. Be to the left of the elevators, I guess it would be then.
Mr. HUBERT. If you were facing the east elevator?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; I was in a position where I could watch it and the elevator, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want--you know, it won't show up on here, so, I want to show you a map or chart of the basement area and in order to identify it so that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, I am going to ask you to sign this with me, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964." This will be Exhibit 5113, deposition of A. R. Brock. I am signing my name beneath that and I'll ask you to sign your name just for the purposes of identification. And now have a look at the map and I would just like you to put, not one spot, because obviously, you can't stand in one spot, but just sort of draw by making sort of an area, circle or oblong just the way you walked and watched.

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Mr. BROCK. What I done, I was in a position here. I didn't move out of it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, you can mark it then. Just put a circle.
Mr. BROCK. I would stay in this position where I could watch the stairs and the elevator, too.
Mr. HUBERT. You are facing, most of the time, toward Main Street?
Mr. BROCK. Well, I would be facing one or the other there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where you marked the circle, I am drawing a line from it, then I am writing, "Position of A. R. Brock during the time he was guarding elevators and staircase." Right?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it by a line to the circle that you drew showing your position. I think you have testified that all the time you were there, the regular service elevators, which are on this chart, denoted as elevators Nos. I and 2, weren't working at all?
Mr. BROCK. They never opened them the entire time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody go up or down the staircase here, which I am marking by putting in "X"?
Mr. BROCK. No one went in or downstairs on the staircase.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever--did you observe this first aid station?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody come in or go out of that the whole time you were there?
Mr. BROCK. At the time that I was assigned there, the doctor was in the first aid station, and Sergeant Putnam contacted him and told him he would have to leave the basement area.
Mr. HUBERT. So, he got out?
Mr. BROCK. No one entered after that.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, I think you stated the time that you were posted, but let's repeat it to be sure.
Mr. BROCK. I think it was about 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there how long?
Mr. BROCK. Oh, I believe it was 10:45 when I left there.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now. Was there any--any people either entered or left this service elevator during the time you were there?
Mr. BROCK. When I first got down there there were three city employees and the elevator operator standing there at the door of the elevator around in front, looking around, just seeing what was going on and shortly after I got there, I told them they would have to leave the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they in some kind of a janitorial uniform so that you could tell that they were employees ?
Mr. BROCK. I have seen them before.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know their names?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don"t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Men and women?
Mr. BROCK. There was one woman. I haven't seen her before, but from what I gather, the way she was talking to the others, she was a telephone operator there at the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. White woman?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they all white people?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir; there was one building engineer. Engineer, I believe, is what he was called--a white man. There was a Negro, two Negroes, one was the elevator operator, one .parked cars in the basement there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you made them all go upstairs?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come down any more?
Mr. BROCK. The elevator came down one other time. Sergeant Putnam brought one of the TV men over there, wanted to go up the fourth--fifth floor to do some kind of work with the equipment there, and the elevator come and picked him up and went up and brought him back in a few minutes, and that was the only person went up or down the elevator.

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Mr. HUBERT. As long as you were there?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you all give the elevator operator any instructions about what he was to do?
Mr. BROCK. We told him to take it up on the first floor and not bring it back in the basement, that is, open the door of it in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after the TV man had been brought up and down?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at that point, after the TV man had been brought up and down, he was issued instructions, "Now, don't come down here any more."
Mr. BROCK. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And all the time you stayed there he didn't?
Mr. BROCK. It didn't come down any more.
Mr. HUBERT. Who got off of that spot at 10:45?
Mr. BROCK. Sergeant Putnam.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he put you after that?
Mr. BROCK. He assigned me over to a traffic intersection where the auto was going to take to the city jail-county jail.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went and helped there?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You drove?
Mr. BROCK. My partner drove; M. L. Wise drove my car.
Mr. HUBERT. Dropped you off?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he drop you off?
Mr. BROCK. Elm and Ervay.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there for how long ?
Mr. BROCK. Until about 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Who relieved you then?
Mr. BROCK. 11:30 my partner picked me up and reported to Parkland.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay at Parkland? What time did you get there and what time did you leave, we'll put it that way.
Mr. BROCK. I would just be guessing. Stayed there probably an hour or hour and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any reserve officers around?
Mr. BROCK. Where?
Mr. HUBERT. Parkland?
Mr. BROCK. There was lots of officers out there. I don't remember seeing any reserve officers out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, can you tell the difference from the uniforms?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What? The badge?
Mr. BROCK. They have a patch on their arm that says, "Dallas Police Reserve Officer," or "Reserve Officer," of some sort and they don't carry guns. All they carry is a nightstick.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Newman?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't. I don't know any of them, I don't guess, by name, that I can recall right now.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you see another officer on duty in the basement but closer to the ramp that runs between Main and Commerce?
Mr. BROCK. There was a, I believe, a reserve officer standing somewhere in this area.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the arrow points-let the record show that the arrow pointed to by the witness is being marked by me with a circle, and I am writing, "Position of Reserve Officer, as testified to by A. R. Brock," and I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it with this smaller circle. Do you know that reserve officer's name?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I just noticed him there. I didn't
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay there about the same time you did?
Mr. BROCK. I believe he was still there or somewhere in that area when I left, and there was another reserve officer assigned in this area here [indicating]

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because he was walking around, back and forth in this area around the staircase and around where I was assigned, also.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose I draw a line, I will start the line with "1," and--
Mr. BROCK. I would say he went over in this area rather than come up on it this way.
Mr. HUBERT. He went out to about the place marked "2" and I am putting the number "1" and "2" in a circle. Now, the line "1" and "2" is where you saw this reserve officer walking up and down?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you don't know his name?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first got there?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He came later? Was he there when you left?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have read these two statements?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to mark them for identification as follows: "An FBI report of an interview of you made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin on December 4, 1963, for identification. I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5114, deposition of A. R. Brock." And signing my name underneath it. It has two pages, and so, I am placing my initials in the left-hand corner on the second page, and I'm also marking for identification what seems to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, the original, apparently, has been signed by you, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5115, deposition of A. R. Brock." I am signing my name. It has only one page. Now, I understand that you have read both of these documents ?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make? I would like you to express yourself as to whether those documents represent the truth and are they complete, or do they have omissions or should anything be deleted as wrong or just tell me your thoughts about the documents dealing first with the FBI report which has been marked "5114"?
Mr. BROCK. These are true, to the best of my memory.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that true of 5115, too?
Mr. BROCK. That would be the other one? Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make on these? Do you think they represent what you know?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; they--I think they represent all that I know about
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that between those two documents, to wit, 5114, 5115, and the material we got on the chart and your deposition, itself, that we now know just everything you know about the matter?
Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; do you care to add anything else in any way?
Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't know of anything else that would.-
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by me or any other member of the Commission staff prior to the starting of this deposition?
Mr. BROCK. No, Sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, that's all. Thank you.