TESTIMONY OF BRUCE RAY CARLIN

The testimony of Bruce Ray Carlin was taken at 12:35 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bruce Carlin.
Mr. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.
I understand that a letter was written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, which however was not delivered because

641


I don't think they had the right address. That means of course that you have not had written notice of the taking of this deposition and under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken, but those rules also provide that that 3-day written notice can be waived if a witness wishes to waive it, and I ask you now, since you have not received the letter, whether you are willing to waive the notice and go ahead and testify now without the notice?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I am.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you rise then so I may administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give at this time will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. CARLIN. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, sir?
Mr. CARLIN. Bruce Ray Carlin.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your address, Mr. Carlin?
Mr. CARLIN. 1054 West Allen.
Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation now, sir ?
Mr. CARLIN. I am a salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you work for a company ?
Mr. CARLIN. I am contracting on my own in the aluminum business; screens.
Mr. HUBERT. You are self-employed then, is that right?
Mr. CARLIN. You can call it that, what employment that I have.
Mr. HUBERT. What company do you sell for?
Mr. CARLIN. Various companies--whichever one makes me the best deal on the aluminum screens that I sell--Southwest, New Aluminum, Webb Aluminum.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. CARLIN. About 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your employment prior to that?
Mr. CARLIN. Part of the time I worked for the Motel Drug Service. Other than that, I haven't been working.
Mr. HUBERT. Motel what?
Mr. CARLIN. Motel Drug Service.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CARLIN. We supply sundries to the lobbies of motels for traveling people.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in Houston on November 21, 1963, that's the day before the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. I know I was traveling--the day the President was shot, I was in Louisiana. The day before I have some newspapers that I got from Houston--I do not know the exact date.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you doing in Houston ?
Mr. CARLIN. We were servicing motels. We were servicing motels with drugs for the motels.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was your specific employer there?
Mr. CARLIN. Jerry Bunker.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located?
Mr. CARLIN. He lives here in Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I don't know the name of the street but he did live at Ridgemar Plaza.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an office there ?
Mr. CARLIN. He uses his apartment as his office.
Mr. HUBERT. You "serviced", you say, various motels ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Under his direction ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You actually brought the products there?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes--well, my primary purpose was to sell the accounts. Of course, I did help him service them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have an automobile or a truck ?
Mr. CARLIN. A station wagon.

642


Mr. HUBERT. And you carried these sundries around?
Mr. CARLIN. With us; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And whatever outfit the motel needed, you sold that to them ?
Mr. CARLIN. That's right and of course we would put in these cabinets, 5 by 5, in the lobby of the motel and stock it with razor blades or hair spray and headache remedies--all these things that people traveling would need.
Mr. HUBERT. You say "we", who was involved ?
Mr. CARLIN. Mr. Bunker; Jerry.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel together?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that he was with you on November 21 ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And on November 22 ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; on any out-of-town trip I've ever been on, he's been with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you specifically recall that you were in Houston on the day before the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. I'm trying to recall whether it was the day before. I know I was there a day or so before. I don't know if it was the exact day before.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you were in Louisiana on the day the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of Louisiana ?
Mr. CARLIN. We were in New Orleans at a large motel and I don't remember the name. We did not sell that particular account, but we were there in the process of selling the account when we got the news that he had been shot and we walked from there into a club that they have in the motel and watched it on TV.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you continue your selling tour then ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been to New Orleans prior to the 22d, that is to say, immediately prior ?
Mr. CARLIN. We were there, I believe, the day before, part of the day before or maybe this was--what I'm thinking is that we drove all night from Houston to New Orleans. Now, this is just like walking across the street last week--you don't remember or you don't know that you're going to have to remember.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember you were in New Orleans when the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first day you had been in New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you had driven all night to arrive in New Orleans on that day?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And furthermore, I think you said that you had driven from Houston ?
Mr. CARLIN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have put you then in Houston on the 21st?
Mr. CARLIN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you were there for the purpose of servicing certain motels?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which ones you serviced?
Mr. CARLIN. In Houston?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. The Vagabond--a very large one downtown--I think The Carriage House, and then a number of smaller ones--five or six smaller motels, which the names of them I don't recall, but that's still not the biggest one--the biggest account down there, and I can't think of it. It's downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in Houston altogether?
Mr. CARLIN. Again, I cannot be sure. I would say a day.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you were there only for the 21st or possibly the 20th too?

643


Mr. CARLIN. It could have been the 20th also. I'm not sure--I can't remember the dates as to when I left or where I was at the time, but I do know I was in Houston before the President was killed and I do know I was in New Orleans the day he was killed, but the exact date, I do not know.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you start that tour from Dallas ?
Mr. CARLIN. This--again--as far as the date, I cannot say either.
Mr. HUBERT.. Did you go to any other places--you started in Dallas, didn't you?
Mr. CARLIN. I think we did. I think we went to Dallas to pick up the drugs-- again--we went different ways. Sometimes we would go to Waco and Austin and then to Houston and sometimes we go from Dallas--the other highway straight down to Houston.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been out several days ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; as far as the date that I left or the date that I was in a certain town, I cannot say--again.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what places did you service in New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. Actually--I can take you to them but remembering the names--it seems as though it was The Caravan and then there was one particular one we were trying to sell to which we went back about three times and it was right across from the airport on Airline Road
Mr. HUBERT. The Hilton Inn?
Mr. CARLIN. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Was it The Hilton Inn ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in New Orleans ?
Mr. CARLIN. Again--a day and a half or 2 days. When we took these trips, it was a mad trip--we worked all day and would drive all night.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay at any place in New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; at the Sugar Bowl.
Mr. HUBERT. The Sugar Bow1 Motel?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave it?
Mr. CARLIN. We stayed all night there and we left the next day after making a number of calls, we left the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time you left?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't. It seems as though, and you probably know better than I do--the President was killed on the day that we left. It seems as though it was this way, but I'm not sure, but probably if I had time to think it out and talk to Mr. Bunker, I could tell more specifically. I know he does have the dates that each account was serviced.
Mr. HUBERT. It's your thought that you possibly spent the night of the 21st at the Sugar Bowl Motel in New Orleans or the night of the day the President was shot, in that motel?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall. I know we spent a night in New Orleans. I know I was there and it was raining at the time the President was killed, and I know it was in the afternoon As far as the specific date, I do not know.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you spend the night in New Orleans after the President was killed or before? Was it the night before or the night of the shooting that you spent the night?
Mr. CARLIN. I think--I am not definitely sure, but I think the day he was killed--that night we spent in New Orleans.
Mr. HUBERT. And the night before you drove up from Houston?
Mr. CARLIN. It seems like the night before we drove up and we checked into a motel and we changed clothes and went to work.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you were in Houston that the President visited there, would that help your memory any ?
Mr. CARLIN. That the President visited in Houston ?
Mr. HUBERT. That the President visited in Houston.
Mr. CARLIN. At the time that I was in Houston I don't recall him visiting there; no. He may have, but I don't recall it now.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from New Orleans?

644


Mr. CARLIN. We drove back. I think we came through East Texas--we drove around--no, we couldn't have gone through East Texas, could we?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you stop any place outside of New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. Other than to eat, I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you got to Dallas?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't think we came to Dallas, or did we--I really don't know. Oh, wait a minute--it seems that we came to Dallas to pick Mitzi up.
Mr. HUBERT. To pick who up?
Mr. CARLIN. Karen--I'm sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been a Saturday night then?
Mr. CARLIN. Well.
Mr. HUBERT. It was the day after the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. We have taken so many trips and they were all so wild--I had no idea we would have to remember dates, time, or places.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was the day after the President was shot that you got back to Dallas or Fort Worth ?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not. I can't even remember the circumstances under which we came back on--why we came back quickly except that we always make every trip in a hurry.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you recall that it was on Saturday the 23d of November, that you came to Dallas from Fort Worth with your wife, Karen?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall the date or which circumstances or what reason that I come to Dallas. Now, can you tell me what you're talking about specifically?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that there was a question as to whether or not your wife Karen would be working at the Carousel that night?
Mr. CARLIN. I do recall it, but I do not know the date. I know one night we went over to see if she was going to work; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think from your previous deposition you fixed the time of that?
Mr. CARLIN. Over quite a bit of thinking, but as far as positively--as I told Mr. Conkle we cannot remember dates or times, especially this far back. We had no idea we would have to remember them.
Mr. HUBERT. But that was the same night you came back or arrived back in Fort Worth from this trip to New Orleans--from New Orleans?
Mr. CARLIN. The night we went to see if she was going to work after Kennedy was killed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't think so--let me see--no; I don't believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now you remember that Ruby shot Oswald on Sunday the 24th?
Mr. CARLIN. I know I was home on that day.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, the night before that, you and your wife had come to Dallas and you had called Ruby and as a matter of fact, made an arrangement to borrow $5 from him?
Mr. CARLIN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was it on that day that you had driven from New Orleans to Fort Worth ?
Mr. CARLIN. It seems as though it would be, but I cannot say definitely whether it was or not. I really don't remember whether that was the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember that you left Fort Worth to come to Dallas only a short time after having arrived back from this trip?
Mr. CARLIN. As far as my trip to Houston and New Orleans and back in relation with Ruby and the time he killed Oswald, had anyone not said something to remind me of the two, I would never put them anywhere near each other, but I guess after talking to you--I guess they were near to each other, but I cannot say the exact times that I left and what times I was in and at what time or the exact time I came back. I do know it was very near there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, first of all, let's fix it this way--that you were definitely in New Orleans the day the President was shot ?

645


Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so. This is the only thing I know definitely--that I can definitely say.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that you drove back from New Orleans to Dallas on that day?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; it's definitely possible, but as far as knowing for sure whether I did or not, I cannot say.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive back from New Orleans to Fort Worth by day or by night?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe at night, but again, we've made many of these trips to the same places, stay in the same places, and calling on the same accounts.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I was trying to get at was whether or not you would remember this rather long trip from New Orleans to Dallas and on to Fort Worth, followed up by a trip with your wife back to Dallas on the night you borrowed the $5 and whether all that occurred on the same day, or do you recall what that day was ?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, I understand what you're getting at, but as far as saying whether it came on the same day, I can't recall. By the way, the account I was trying to think of in Houston is The Tidelands, if this means anything. I know that we were depressed as far as the President being killed and I remember making the statement I didn't feel much like working, but on the other hand, I don't recall whether we left just after finding out that the President was killed, and drove back then, or we might have started during the daytime and drove back in there early in the morning and then going to bed and getting up the next day and driving to Dallas. I'm saying I don't recall whether this was the way it was or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you otherwise remember what you did on Saturday the 23d, the day after the President was shot ?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not. I don't even remember where I was at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we do know that you were in Fort Worth, at least in the evening?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Because you came back to Dallas with your wife?
Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your memory as to whether you had been at home all day on Saturday?
Mr. CARLIN. I'm sorry--it doesn't. I'm not evading anything, I just cannot remember the specific time of what I was doing. I know as far as the incident of going to Dallas and I know what I did when I went to New Orleans and Houston, but as far as the particular date that you're thinking of now--I can't recall what I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, the records of the Sugar Bow1 Motel would show the night you were there, wouldn't it?
Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so.
Mr. HUBERT. And it would have been the next day that you drove back?
Mr. CARLIN. I feel sure.
Mr. HUBERT. So--no, it was not necessarily the next day--you think it might have been the next day that you drove back to Dallas or Fort Worth?
Mr. CARLIN. Now, we have at times worked New Orleans first and come back through Houston. I don't think we did at this particular time, but again, we've made these trips a number of times, and both of us being very tired at all times and not even caring what time it was or where we were, we were trying to get the work done and get back.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were in New Orleans at the time you heard the news about the shooting of the President?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you were at some particular place?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I was in a large motel.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of that one?
Mr. CARLIN. It was on the same highway that the Hilton Inn is on but downtown, down near town. It was right on the--it's near the Thunderbird Motel, but it's not the Thunderbird Motel.
Mr. HUBERT. The Tamanaca?

646


Mr. CARLIN. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. The Tamanaca?
Mr. CARLIN. I know The Tamanaca is right in there but I don't recall if that's the one. It's a very large motel, very nice, and the restaurant sits right on the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Could it be Motel DeVille?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I believe so--I believe that is it. At the time of hearing that the President was assassinated, I was in the manager's office and he was busy, and we left there and walked right around the corner to a private club, which the doors were open and the TV was on, and we sat and watched the news report.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did after and how long you stayed there, and what you did after you left that place?
Mr. CARLIN. No; not exactly. We possibly could have left right after that for Fort Worth, or we might have spent the night and left the next morning. As far as saying specifically, I do not know. There have been times when I would come in from a trip and get to Dallas in time to pick Karen up, and there have been times I have come in at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning--sometimes even daylight.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how you traveled from Fort Worth to Dallas, that is, the night of the 23d ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go? How did you go?
Mr. CARLIN. You mean--was I in a car?
Mr. HUBERT Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. Tammi True brought us.
Mr. HUBERT. She brought you from Fort Worth to Dallas?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of coming in?
Mr. CARLIN. Karen didn't know if she had to go to work or not, and I believe I'm not sure of this, but it seems as though Jack Ruby owed Tammi some money or something and she was going to change jobs and she wanted the money.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go when you got there?
Mr. CARLIN. We went to the club first and parked at the parking lot between the Colony and Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. That's Nichols Garage, isn't it?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes. The door was locked, so we went to the Colony.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to drink then?
Mr. CARLIN. Did I have anything to drink?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall. I know that we were practically broke, just some change is all we had, so I don't know whether we had anything to drink or not.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall that at all?
Mr. CARLIN. No. I know for sure that at least Karen drank a coke and possibly I did--I don't know if I had any alcohol at the time or not.
Mr. HUBERT. But whatever you did have, you paid for it?
Mr. CARLIN. Again, I don't recall--Karen had some change in her pocket, in her purse.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would have been either you or Karen?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe so--I'm not sure. At times we never paid for anything when we went in the club. He just gave us a drink.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?
Mr. CARLIN. Crafard?
Mr. HUBERT. Who worked at the Carousel ?
Mr. CARLIN. There was a man by the name of Larry--I don't know his last name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to call him on Friday night, the 22d, the night the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. The night the President was shot?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to him on the night before the President was shot?

647


Mr. CARLIN. I don't think I was in town the night before he was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. No; this would have been a long distance call?
Mr. CARLIN. No. While I was in Houston, I believe I called Karen--I don't know if it was this particular trip or not, but I did notice some receipts from the telephone company that I had that there was a call from Houston to Dallas charged to my phone. The reason I know this is so because I turned the receipts over to my CPA the other day and he was asking which calls were business and which ones were not and I had to mark them off.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall a call received by you at The Vagabond Motel in Houston at 4:38 on the morning of the 21st, and that would have been Thursday ?
Mr. CARLIN. I remember I was called that morning; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who called you, do you remember ?
Mr. CARLIN. I believe Karen called me.
Mr. HUBERT. And do you remember a phone call at 7:30 that same night, that's the night prior to the shooting of the President? That's on Thursday night--that you called the Carousel Club and spoke for approximately 3 minutes to a person named Larry?
Mr. CARLIN. No; definitely not.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not make any such call on the telephone the night before the President was killed?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't know if I made a call. If I did, it was not to Larry. Now, I called at various times and trips and I do not know whether it was this one this particular time, but I do remember calling and asking for Karen and having to wait a length of time for her to come to the phone, but as far as talking to anyone in conversation, I don't know even who answered the phone. I can't even say if it was that particular time that I called. I do know I have called and Andrew answered the phone, and he's the one I thought answered it, but I don't know exactly when it was that I called.
Mr. HUBERT. But you can be quite certain, I believe from what you have testified, that you did not visit the Carousel Club on the night the President was shot, that is, Friday night?
Mr. CARLIN. Not unless we drove back and got back in time to pick Karen up, but I don't think we did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember going to pick her up?
Mr. CARLIN. I remember a number of times coming back from a trip and picking her up.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean then.
Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not remember picking her up that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first talked to her about the President's death?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't recall the first time I mentioned it to her--probably as soon as I came home.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't. It would depend on what time we left from New Orleans. I could guess, if I knew what time I left New Orleans.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that you left New Orleans shortly after checking out of the Sugar Bowl ?
Mr. CARLIN. At times we would, but other times, to save money, we would check out and service one or two accounts and then leave.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know about this time?
Mr. CARLIN. I feel sure all of our accounts were serviced when we checked out, possibly they weren't.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you checked out prior to hearing of the President's death?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I think we were still in the motel at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you remember then that you went to the Sugar Bowl Motel after looking at the television concerning the President's death ?
Mr. CARLIN. I think so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that meant you would have checked out of the Sugar Bowl Motel some time in the afternoon or night of Friday, November 22 ?
Mr. CARLIN. I misunderstood.

648


Mr. HUBERT. I say--that means that you would have checked out from the Sugar Bowl Motel after the President's death, that is to say, during the afternoon or night of the 22d ?
Mr. CARLIN. Unless we did not check out and spent the night there.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; in which case you would have checked out the following morning?
Mr. CARLIN. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would have been Saturday ?
Mr. CARLIN. Right. The Sugar Bowl records will show that, because I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man named Pachey Nespica ?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't--not to my knowledge. Wait a minute Nespica ?
Mr. HUBERT. Nespica.
Mr. CARLIN. Is he with a greeting card company?
Mr. HUBERT. I don't know. There is an indication that you spoke to him on November 6 and that he is in Cleveland, Ohio?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes--I don't know him, but I do know I tried to call him. We were still trying to get a franchise on greeting cards from him.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you obtain his number and name?
Mr. CARLIN. This--I don't remember either. It seems as though a salesman gave it to me.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that--about?
Mr. CARLIN. When did I call?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. When did I call ?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I just know it was in the morning some time. I don't remember the date that I called. I also noticed that name on the receipt from the telephone company when I was giving it to the CPA.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did your conversation with him last?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall--just as quick as I could get off the phone, knowing what it cost.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about these greeting cards and you wanted to be able to sell?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that time?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had obtained his name and telephone number from someone?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I'm trying to think where. It seems as though a salesman gave it to me either in one of the stores or possibly the American Greeting Card salesman. I called him a number of times and he might have given it to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call from, do you remember?
Mr. CARLIN. You mean--to Nespica?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. From my home.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that an enterprise that you had with Bunker or were you alone in that?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, Bunker and I were trying to get it--well, I don't know whether I told him, but it seems as though I told him I was trying to get it. I know we had talked about it, but I don't know that he was in it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were working for him, he wasn't working for you, was he?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, you can say "working for him"--it was an agreement where I helped him build his business and if I did he would give me a job.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he pay for these telephone ca11s?
Mr. CARLIN. No; he did not pay for those.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he supposed to have?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, there are some calls that were made on my phone that he was supposed to pay for, but this is not one of them.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Cameron King, can you tell us about him ?
Mr. CARLIN. He was my--oh--I worked for Friendship Greetings, and at that

649


time I wasn't working for Cameron King, but he was my boss when I worked for Friendship Greetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Cameron King?
Mr. CARLIN. He was the sales supervisor over this area for Friendship Greetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes--from Kansas.
Mr. HUBERT. The record shows here that you called him on September. Do you recall that--that you called him at Farmers Branch, Tex.?
Mr. CARLIN. I called Cameron?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall the times I called him--I don't recall that that time I called him, but I do know that many, many times I called him.
Mr. HUBERT. What were these conversations about?
Mr. CARLIN. To my knowledge, I guess that would be in regard to Friendship Greetings or maybe a check that they owed me or a phone bill that they had agreed to pay that they didn't ever pay.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you called him on September 27 twice at 2:45 p.m. and at 5:53 p.m.?
Mr. CARLIN. On September the 27th? What day was that in regard to that particular time? Maybe I can recall the reason for calling him.
Mr. HUBERT. This was on September the 27th and September the 27th was a Friday. That's September 27, 1963.
Mr. CARLIN. That 27th would have been after I made the trip; right?
Mr. HUBERT. After you made what trip ?
Mr. CARLIN. After the trip to New Orleans or before.
Mr. HUBERT. September the 27th would have been almost 2 months before the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't recall why I would call him.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can think of that would make you call him twice in one day ?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, a number of things--I can't recall particularly why, but if you will notice the records show that he had been called a number of times and the last few months two times a day. I worked for the man.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for him then?
Mr. CARLIN. In September?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall--I believe so--I believe I was, but I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you start with Bunker?
Mr. CARLIN. I've been working with Bunker for about 2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be working with Cameron King and Bunker at the same time?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes. There were times--a month or 2 or 3 months that I didn't do anything with Bunker and there were times when he wanted a few more accounts and I could financially handle them and he would come to me and want me to go sell these acccounts and we would get behind in servicing, and he would come to me and we would go service them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money with it?
Mr. CARLIN. Very little with Cameron. He paid my expenses and that's about the most of it. At times he would give us various sundries that we needed and at times he would give me $5 or $10, but that was nothing to say I made any money. It was a promise deal that I would get a percent of the company for building it and a job.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a man named Johnny Ammons [spelling] A-m-m-o-n-s?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. CARLIN. He owns a service station. The only reason I would be calling him would be trying to get a motor for a car that I owned at the time that the motor was out.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall speaking to him ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; but I don't know exactly when.

650


Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other association with him
Mr. CARLIN. No; only about 4 or 5 years ago I was at his home once, again, dealing with a car. He buys and sells cars.
Mr. HUBERT. You spoke to him on the 30th of October just after noon, on the 30th of October. Do you recall whether you had ever spoken to him prior to that date, or do you recall when was the last time you spoke to him prior to that date?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall the last time I spoke to him prior to that. That particular call, I think, was in regard to a head for a motor that was gone out on the one I had.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you hadn't spoken to him for a year? That's what I gather?
Mr. CARLIN. I would say at least a year and maybe more.
Mr. HUBERT. You had no contact with him for at least a year up until that time?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with him since?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who put in the call to Ruby on Saturday night when you were asking for the $5 from him?
Mr. CARLIN. The first call--Karen went to the phone booth and made, and the second call was made from the parking lot, and I don't recall whether it was Karen or I that called him. It might have even been Tammi that dialed the number.
Mr. HUBERT. What place was called?
Mr. CARLIN. His home to my knowledge I talked to him, and I assumed that he was at home.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes?
Mr. CARLIN. It seems as though we had to make two calls--I don't know whether he--no, maybe it was just one and I talked to him after Karen did. Maybe that's the way it was--I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You think it was at his home rather than any place else?
Mr. CARLIN. I assume it was. I did not dial the number.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you ask him for that night or did Karen ask him for, or both?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, we didn't ask him for the $5. We told him that we needed the money. and we came over here thinking that he would be open and we could get the money, and I don't know what he said to her, but he upset her--I don't know whether he hung up on her and she dialed the number back or someone dialed the number back, but he upset her and I took the phone and I said something to the effect that he had been very good about letting her have money when she needed it and we appreciated it, and we were in a jam, and that we came over without any money and needed it the next day, and he said, "Well, Bruce, I don't owe that girl anything." He said, "I'11 give her money when she has money due," and he said, "I don't owe her anything," and I said, "I realize that but we are in a jam," and he said, "Well, let me speak to--" the man there--whatever his name was--I don't recall whether he called him by name or not, "and I'll tell him to give you $5." He said it in a tone of voice as though he was upset and mad because we had called. Oh, he said, "I can't come down there, I've got people here and company," and I did hear people talking.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was reluctant to give you the $5, to lend you the $5?
Mr. CARLIN. Not so much reluctant. He offered it, but I didn't think to ask him to let us borrow the money from somebody there and pay him back. I didn't think of that, he did.
Mr. HUBERT. But his position was that he didn't owe any money, so he was lending the money?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, he owed it; I believe. Again--I'm not sure, but he said, "I don't owe that girl a thing." In other words--"I've done enough for her," and I don't mean as far as money. He said, "I've done her enough favors and I don't owe her anything."

651


Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn't owe her the obligation of advancing her salary?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; that's what I mean, and then he said--again, disgusted, but like he didn't mind, that he just didn't want to talk. He said, "Let me talk to the guy there and I'll get him to give you $5 and I can give it back to him."
Mr. HUBERT. And you took it to mean then that that was all he was going to let you have on the advanced salary, is that right?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't know whether he said it to me or to her, but he said to call him tomorrow and he would send us some more--I believe was the terms he used, or call him tomorrow he would send us some.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he explain why he wanted you to call him tomorrow or why he would be in a position to give you some on Sunday and not on Saturday?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; he said he was busy and didn't have time to come down there to give it to us then. He said he had company.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did ask for more money on Saturday night than the $5?
Mr. CARLIN. I asked for no specific amount. Karen may have the first time she talked to him or at that time before I started talking to him, but I asked for no specific amount.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any consideration to borrowing from your family or friends or other people rather than Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. Well, yes; I probably could have except for two things: First, I had no car to go somewhere to borrow it, and second, it was fairly late at night, and third, I was in Dallas where I could not get back to borrow money that late at night.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you made the call from the garage, but you had previously been at the Colony Club, had you not?
Mr. CARLIN. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn't you make the call from the Colony Club?
Mr. CARLIN. I remember now--the call was made from the Colony Club and she said that he was very upset and rude to her and we went back down to see--it seems as though Andy was in here somewhere, at least he was supposed to be at the club or something--that's what he said. At least, Karen told me he said Andrew was supposed to be at the club. After upsetting her and hanging the phone up, we went down to see if the club was open and we knocked on the door and no one was there, and we went back to the parking lot again and called because it was downstairs and the Colony was upstairs and farther away, and much more noise.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connection with an outfit called Banker's Drug Co. or Bankers' Drugs?
Mr. CARLIN. Bankers' Drugs--not to my knowledge. You might tell me some more about them, if I did?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned that when you were servicing these little motels, these setups in motels, that some of it was with drugs like aspirin and so forth?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; definitely so. That's what we did.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your recollection or refresh your memory of that concerning any possible connection you had with Bankers' Drugs?
Mr. CARLIN. I realize that that would be the only way that I would have a connection with Bankers' Drugs.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it mean anything to you now?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Southwestern Drugs?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; we've done business with Southwestern Drugs.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that--a wholesale house?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. CARLIN. There's one here in Fort Worth. There is a little drug company in Houston that we bought a number of things from because we ran short, but I don't know if it was at this particular time, or if this was the name of the company.

652


Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have any dealings with selling any sort of other drugs of miscellaneous character to Jack Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. Again--the question, sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any occasion to sell any kind of miscellaneous drugs of that sort to Jack Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I certainly did not, and I don't know if you are referring to this or not, but we handle nothing in the line of narcotics.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I'm not talking about that.
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I'm talking about the line of business that you were in selling these sundry items?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I'm talking about aspirin and things like that?
Mr. CARLIN. No. I sold none to Ruby. I don't know if you might be referring to this particular time, but at some time or other someone said they needed something, they said that they were out of something and I got something out of the car and gave it to someone, and I don't know if at this particular time if it was Jack Ruby or somebody in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the Carousel?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't know--I just remember that Jerry said, "Why don't you get something out of the car and give it to he or she"--or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Jerry Bunker?
Mr. CARLIN. I think that's the time. Again, it could have been here in Fort Worth. I recall that he did send me to the car to get something for somebody that was out of something. It might have been hair oil or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know whether it was Ruby?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Tammi True stay with you'all all the time on Saturday night?
Mr. CARLIN. All the time we were in Dallas?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall whether she left for any reason or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he drive you back?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether she picked you up or you met her some place to drive back?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall, but I don't think so. I think we drove back right from the parking lot--from the garage.
Mr. HUBERT. And you came in from Fort Worth and went directly to the garage ?
Mr. CARLIN. To the best of my knowledge, I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that indicate to you that Tammi True was with you all during the time?
Mr. CARLIN. Unless she would have gotten up during the time we were in the Colony and maybe talked to someone or something of that nature, but to the best of my knowledge I saw her periodically all night long and I didn't pay much attention to what she was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ralph Paul that night?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall whether I did or not--I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. You know him, don't you ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes
Mr. HUBERT. Was Tammi True with you, did she see him, to your knowledge?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't know whether she did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Harry Olsen or Kathy Kay on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23 or 24?
Mr. CARLIN. Kathy Kay sounds familiar, but Harry Olsen, I can't place.
Mr. HUBERT. Harry Olsen was formerly a member of the Dallas Police Department and he subsequently married Kathy Kay.
Mr. CARLIN. Kathy Kay then is the girl, the blonde-headed girl that worked at the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Of course, you couldn't have seen her on Friday, I take it, from what you tell me?

653


Mr. CARLIN. I don't recall seeing her--in fact, I don't recall seeing her since--from the time--well, before I left, I don't recall seeing her.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you didn't see her after the President was shot?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Olsen?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir; I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ralph Paul ever tell you that Ruby had called him on Saturday night and had talked possibly about doing something to Lee Harvey Oswald or to the Weinstetns?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't know Weinstein. No; he did not call--I mean--he did not tell me he called.
Mr. HUBERT. Paul never told you he had received a call from Ruby on Saturday night?
Mr. CARLIN. I never conversed with Paul other than "Hello, how are you?"
Mr. HUBERT. So, the answer then is that Paul did not tell you that Ruby had spoken to him on Saturday night?
Mr. CARLIN. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby tell you what time to call him on Sunday with reference to getting the rest of the money?
Mr. CARLIN. I don't believe he did. If he did, I did not go by what he said. I called when I got up.
Mr. HUBERT. Had it been arranged that the money would be sent by wire?
Mr. CARLIN. I'm not positive. It seems as though he told Karen this or she led me to believe this by something she said.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who it was that used to pick up Karen and Little Lynn, I think was her stage name, too ?
Mr. CARLIN. Pick her up in a cab?
Mr. HUBERT. In a cab. Do you know anything about that?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't--at what time was she picked up, after she got off?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes--possibly. You don't know anything about anybody picking her up?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were your closest friends among the strippers, other than Karen?
Mr. CARLIN. Karen.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than Karen?
Mr. CARLIN. The only one that I knew personallly was Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was Karen's closest friend among the strippers--among those girls?
Mr. CARLIN. I would guess Tammi True. She didn't get along with anybody to well to tell you the truth.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Lee Oswald ?
Mr. CARLIN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. You've seen pictures of him, I take it?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you've ever seen him any place?
Mr. CARLIN. His face looks familiar, but as many times as you have seen a picture like that, you could say the same thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?
Mr. CARLIN. Was I ever a member?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or the Socialist Workers party?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever participated in any political activities?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?"
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Bernard Weissman?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I didn't know him. I had heard of him and recalled it after an FBI agent asked me about him.

654


Mr. HUBERT. But prior to the time that the FBI agent asked you about him, did you know anything about him at all ?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes; he was a man who put the leaflets out or an ad in the paper or something, before Kennedy came to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And you knew that before Kennedy came to Dallas, or have you found it out afterwards ?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I believe I found it out from the News---I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see any of the Bernard Weissman signs prior to that?
Mr. CARLIN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, I have marked for purposes of identification two photos by placing on the reverse side of them the following words: "Dallas, Texas, August 24, 1964", and----
The REPORTER. You mean, "Fort Worth, Tex."?
Mr. HUBERT. I do mean Fort Worth, and I am scratching "Dallas" out and putting "Fort Worth" there, and I have previously marked "Dallas" on all of these pictures, but I have scratched it out and entered above it "Fort Worth, Tex., August 24, 1964, Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, Deposition of Bruce Carlin", and to which I have signed my name.
These are FBI pictures of J. D. Tippit and I ask you whether or not you recognize that man?
Mr. CARLIN (examining instruments referred to). No; I do not recognize him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you've ever seen him before?
Mr. CARLIN. I couldn't say. I've been shown these pictures once before.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures also marked--I had marked them "Dallas" first and have scratched that out and have marked them "Fort Worth, Tex., August 24, 1964, Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4, Deposition of Bruce Carlin", and to which I have signed my name. These pictures, of course, purport to be various views of Bernard Weissman, also being FBI pictures, and I ask you if you have ever seen that man before?
Mr. CARLIN. This man does look familiar as I told the FBI agent, but I cannot say if I've seen him or where I've seen him, if I had.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him in connection with Ruby ?
Mr. CARLIN. I can't say--it just seems as though I have seen this man before.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember where?
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't even remember if I've seen him. I just know he looks familiar.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I thank you. That's all.
Mr. CARLIN. Very good.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to your coming into this room today, I don't believe we had any conversation, and therefore I ask you whether you concur that everything that has passed between us has been in this room since the reporter has been taking it down?
Mr. CARLIN. That's right. I would like to say this, if I may?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CARLIN. I have told all that I know. As far as I'm concerned, my wife has told all that she knows. I don't believe she knows any more. Because of this complete or whole situation, I have lost one job and lost other jobs in regard to it, maybe not for the same reason but I knew why.
Now, I've got a living to make and a family to support and if there is anything else that anybody wants to talk to me about, I wish they would get it over with now, because it's a matter of what or whether I'm going to eat or my family is going to eat the next meal and I should be out working today and I've lost another day, and I've been as cooperative as I can be.
I know no more. I don't care about Ruby. I have a family to support and it all just sums up that I'm just tired of the FBI and Secret Service, and I know they're doing their jobs, but it's hard to live and live normally with the situation keeping coming back up like it is.
Now, if a man goes to jail, he pays his debt to society and he's out and should be left alone. Karen probably should not have been working where she was working, but she is not working now and I'm trying to support her and a baby and I would like to be left alone.
If I could tell all I know, which I have told--I would like to get this over

655


with and quit having to come back up here and be embarrassed by my landlord being asked by the federal agents about where I am and questions about me and my friends.
I know it is a job that had to be done, and I feel like I've been questioned and investigated, and I don't care how much they investigate me, but this is enough, and I think it's time now to be left alone.
Mr. HUBERT. We certainly appreciate your feelings. Let me make this statement to you--the fact that you've been recalled is by no means for the purpose of harassing you.
Mr. CARLIN. Oh, I understand that.
Mr. HUBERT. It's just simply that sometimes little points develop that we didn't know about at prior times, and it's just an effort to do it right.
Mr. CARLIN. I understand that. I know everyone is doing their job and I realize that I told you things today that I didn't remember the first time I was here.
Mr. HUBERT. With respect to your loss of pay, of course, I don't think the Government can make that up to you, but there is a per diem which you are entitled to for appearing----
Mr. CARLIN. No; I don't expect them to.
Mr. HUBERT. And if you will check with Mr. Conkle of the Secret Service, I think he can arrange to have you receive the per diem, so you may check with him. I don't know whether it will be material or not but you might check with him.
Mr. CARLIN. Well, I'm not asking anything from the Government. I know I had a job to do and I think I've told you all I know.
Mr. HUBERT. But under the law you may be entitled to some stipend, and we want you to have it.
Mr. CARLIN. Well, I have contacted my lawyer here again and he said, "Go again and try to explain to them the situation that you're in." It has made it hard. I was making good money up until this started and it seems that I can't stay anywhere long that they don't recognize her, or an agent is asking questions, or the word gets around as to who I am and who my wife is, and this always means--well, it's jeopardizing my family, and it's nobody's fault but ours, but we're trying to live it down and we can't do it if things like this keep coming up.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I'm sure the Commission will take that into account. I don't know whether you will be interrogated again--probably not--but I can assure you that if it should come about, it is because it would be absolutely necessary.
Mr. CARLIN. Okay.
Mr. HUBERT. We really appreciate your position and thank you very much.
Mr. CARLIN. Okay, sir. Glad to have seen you.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.