TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. CLARK

The testimony of Richard L. Clark was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CLARK. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. CLARK. Richard L. Clark.
Mr. BALL. What is your address, please, your home address?
Mr. CLARK. 49278 Live Oak.
Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?
Mr. CLARK. Detective for the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. CLARK. Eleven years.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?
Mr. CLARK. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Go through school here?
Mr. CLARK. Went to school in Irving..
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. CLARK. After I went to school?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. CLARK. I went to work.
Mr. BALL. Where? Let me explain to you that the Commission isn't going to see you personally, they ask us to find out something about you and where you were born and your early education, what you have done most of your life, try to get some idea of who is giving the testimony.
Mr. CLARK. Worked for Merchants Retail Credit Association before the police department.
Mr. BALL. What kind of word do you do on the police department?
Mr. CLARK. Vice squad detective.
Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of the police department, did you?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How many?

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Mr. CLARK. Two.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were?
Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the exact time.
Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup?
Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?
Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. Who went with you?
Mr. CLARK. My partner.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. CLARK. W.E. Perry.
Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there?
Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there.
Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there?
Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there?
Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people?
Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody.
Mr. BALL. What was said at that time?
Mr. CLARK. They told us just to wait right there, that they wanted us to make a showup with them.
Mr. BALL. Did you wait there very long?
Mr. CLARK. I'd say we waited in the office maybe 15 minutes or less.
Mr. BALL. Anything said while you were there?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it was a red vest, went on down to the jail office.
Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest?
Mr. CLARK. At homicide.
Mr. BALL. You didn't own a----
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or----
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt.
Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt?
Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. Took off your tie?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on?
Mr. CLARK. Brown.
Mr. BALL. With belt?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about your partner, what did he do?
Mr. CLARK. He took off his tie and his coat, and I believe they had a sports coat hanging there that he put on.
Mr. BALL. And you went down in the showup room?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many men were in the showup with you?
Mr. CLARK. Total?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. CLARK. Well, let's see. Myself, my partner, Oswald and another man out of the jail office.

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Mr. BALL. What was his name? Do you know? Was that Ables?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was your position in the showup?
Mr. CLARK. My right had was handcuffed to Oswald's left hand.
Mr. BALL. Your right----
Mr. CLARK. To his left.
Mr. BALL. To his left. Then who was next to Oswald?
Mr. CLARK. And my partner, W.E. Perry, was next to Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed to Oswald?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he was. Handcuffed his left hand to Oswald's right hand.
Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Ables?
Mr. CLARK. Mr. Ables was standing to the left.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll put that on. Now, did you have numbers in the showup as such? Have a number above each man?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; I believe we do.
Mr. BALL. Now, facing the audience, if you were in the audience, were you numbered from left to right?
Mr. CLARK. Numbered from left to right.
Mr. BALL. As you faced the audience?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And as the audience faces you, it is right to left to the audience?
Mr. CLARK. The audience facing us it--well, it would be just opposite.
Mr. BALL. Opposite, that's right. Now, as you faced the audience, who was the first one to the left?
Mr. CLARK. First one to my left?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. CLARK. Be Ables.
Mr. BALL. The No. 1 was Ables?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; No. 1 was Perry.
Mr. BALL. Who was No. 2?
Mr. CLARK. Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Who was No. 3?
Mr. CLARK. Myself.
Mr. BALL Who was No. 4?
Mr. CLARK. Ables.
Mr. BALL. And he stood to your right and faced the audience?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he stood to my left as I was facing the audience. The audience was looking at him, it would be----
Mr. BALL. He stood on your left?
Mr. CLARK. That's right.
Mr. BALL. I see. Ables would be the No. 4 man?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you the No. 3 man?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2, your partner 1?
Mr. CLARK. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any questions?
Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us?
Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions.
Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any questions? Ask your name and address and occupation?
Mr. CLARK. Oh, in the showup?
Mr. BALL. In the showup.
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?
Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name.

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Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him.
Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Fictitious name?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation?
Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious.
Mr. BALL. Fictitious?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said in the audience?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I couldn't hear anything that was said.
Mr. BALL. Lights were on you?
Mr. CLARK. Lights were on us; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you couldn't see in the audience?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, can you refresh your memory from the police report and tell me what time that first showup was?
Mr. CLARK. 4:35 p.m.
Mr. BALL. P.m.? You were in the second showups in which you took part?
Mr. CLARK. Second showup would be 6:30 p.m.
Mr. BALL. Now, those were the only two showups in which you took part?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, at the 6:30 showup, how did you happen to take part in that?
Mr. CLARK. I believe some detective, I don't recall who, came up from homicide and told us that there would probably be another showup after the first one, to stick around in the event that there was that they wanted us again.
Mr. BALL. Did you still stick around?
Mr. CLARK. We went back to our office.
Mr. BALL. To your office? Did you get a call?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; they called us back down there.
Mr. BALL. Who called you?
Mr. CLARK. I don't recall who called us.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got the call?
Mr. CLARK. Back up to the third floor, homicide office up there.
Mr. BALL. Fritz' office?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What had you done with the little red vest that you had on in the first showup?
Mr. CLARK. I had left--after the showup we went back upstairs to the homicide, and I took it off and left it there.
Mr. BALL. What did you do for the second showup? How did you dress?
Mr. CLARK. The same red vest.
Mr. BALL. What about your tie?
Mr. CLARK. No tie.
Mr. BALL. What about the coat?
Mr. CLARK. No coat.
Mr. BALL. Now, on the second showup, where were you standing?
Mr. CLARK. Same position.
Mr. BALL. Same position.
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Facing the audience, who was No. 1?
Mr. CLARK. Facing the audience, Perry would have been No. 1 Oswald----
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. CLARK. Perry.
Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2?
Mr. CLARK. Oswald, 2; myself, 3; Ables, 4.
Mr. BALL. And did the detective ask you questions?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he asked me questions again.

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Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?
Mr. CLARK. Name, address, occupation.
Mr. BALL. And do you remember what you said?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; they were all fictitious answers.
Mr. BALL. And again, could you hear anything said in the audience?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is your height?
Mr. CLARK. About 5'11".
Mr. BALL. What is your weight?
Mr. CLARK. About 177.
Mr. BALL. And your hair?
Mr. CLARK. Blond.
Mr. BALL. And your eyes?
Mr. CLARK. Blue.
Mr. BALL. Your complexion is fair?
Mr. CLARK. Fair.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?
Mr. CLARK. No.
Mr. BALL. Was it unusual to have an officer, from your experience in the police department, was it unusual to have an officer take part in the police department showup?
Mr. CLARK. No; it wasn't unusual.
Mr. BALL. You ever helped them before?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. I think that is all.
Will you give your seat to your partner here, and we'll take his deposition.