Testimony Of Patrick Trevore Dean

The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 8 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office. Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burr W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me state for the record, first of all, introduce myself. As you probably heard I am Burr Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. Now, this Commission was set up under an Executive order of President Johnson, dated November 29, 1963, called Executive Order No. 11130. Also pursuant to a Joint resolution of Congress. We have adopted a number of rules and so forth which I will explain to you a little bit beforehand, pursuant to all these resolutions, I have been authorized by the General Counsel to take the deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean, who is right here.
I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of the inquiry that we are going into here. As the title of the Commission would indicate,
Voice - I hate to interrupt, but
Mr. GRIFFIN - Off the record.
(Discussion off the record. )
Mr. GRIFFIN - As I say, I want to tell you a little bit about the scope of this inquiry that we are going to go into. We have been authorized to inquire into and evaluate and report to the President on all the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts surrounding the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Calling you, Sergeant Dean, we are particularly interested in the facts that surround the death of Oswald, although we don't mean to preclude any other information that you may have which may pertain to the whole area in which we are going. There has been a written request made to Chief Curry, by the general counsel of our Commission staff, asking that you appear here some time during this particular week. Now, this is not quite in full keeping with the rules that have been set forth by the Commission. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. This is going to be sworn testimony. The rules also-pro-vide, however, that you may waive this notice. I want to ask you right now, Sergeant Dean, if you are willing to waive the written 3-day notice which you can require us to give you?
Mr. DEAN - Yes. I will waive it.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay. Now, I also want to tell you that you are entitled, under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present, if you want, and I notice you are not here today with an attorney, and I presume that is your desire, but do you?
Mr. DEAN - I will waive that, also.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay. Now, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. DEAN - I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr. DEAN - Patrick Trevore Dean.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where do you live?
Mr. DEAN - 2822 Nicholson, Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where are you employed?
Mr. DEAN - Police department.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Dallas Police Department?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. DEAN - 11 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And do you hold any particular .rank in the department?
Mr. DEAN - I am a sergeant.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How long have you been a sergeant?
Mr. DEAN - 6 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What section were you assigned to in the police department?
Mr. DEAN - Patrol division.
Mr. GRIFFIN - That was on November 22, 23, and 24?
Mr. DEAN - That's correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, it's my understanding that you were not on duty on either November 22 or 23?
Mr. DEAN - That's correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Are these your regular off duty days?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What time did you come to work on Sunday, November 24?
Mr. DEAN - At 7 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Prior to the time that you came to work, had you heard anything about the proposed move of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; well, before I came to work, no, sir; I hadn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Before you came to work did you know that Oswald was going to be moved that day?
Mr. DEAN - Just rumored that some time during the day that he would be moved.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How had you heard that?
Mr. DEAN - Well, rumors in around city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Had you been around the city hall on the 23d?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Or the 22d?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where then did you hear these rumors?
Mr. DEAN - I had just come into town just about the time the President landed on Friday. I had been out to south Texas deer hunting, and that day, I, of course, listened to all the news about the assassination, and also the next day, on the 23d, and then on the 24th at 7 o'clock is when I reported for duty.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well, you indicated to me, though, that you had heard rumors around the police station?
Mr. DEAN - This was on the 24th. They had said that sometime during the day that Oswald would be moved. Now, who they are would be in the captain's office, around in the captain's office and in my office.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Referring to that period before you came on duty, had you heard any rumors then?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - So when you arrived you didn't have any idea that Oswald was going to be moved that day?
Mr. DEAN - Repeat it?
Mr. GRIFFIN - When you arrived at 7 o'clock Sunday morning
Mr. DEAN - Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - You didn't have any idea Oswald was going to be moved that day?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me ask you this: Did you drive down to work that day?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you recall where you parked your car?
Mr. DEAN - That being Sunday, I believe I parked in the 2100 block of Jackson Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And do you recall how you entered the police department building?
Mr. DEAN - On the Commerce Street side going to the basement. Not into the parking area where the incident occurred, but going into the police and courts building from Commerce Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN - When you entered at 7 o'clock---I know it's difficult to pick out what you saw at one time and what you saw at another time. Did you see any TV cables---
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Strung through that entrance?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; numerous television cables and cameras.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Try to think back as best you can and tell us, as you walked in from Commerce Street, you know, you come down the steps---
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - You have to open the door?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And that will take you into the hallway?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - That leads to the records room. Now, as you got into that area there where you open up the door and so forth, did you see any TV cables strung through that doorway?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; I believe there was a lot of TV cable down at the end of the hall there, toward the jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well now, talking now about right up at the
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did any TV cables come through that Commerce Street entrance?
Mr. DEAN - I don't recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, what did you do when you got inside?
Mr. DEAN - I went immediately to the basement, changed clothes into my uniform and then went to the second floor, which is the patrol captains office, where I report for duty.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who did you report to there?
Mr. DEAN - Captain Talbert.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And did you have a conversation with Talbert at that time?
Mr. DEAN - Nothing specific; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did Talbert give you an assignment at that time?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did Talbert talk to you in anyway about the movement of Oswald at that time?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you learn somewhere after you arrived at work that someone had made a telephone call in connection with the movement of Oswald, threatening Oswald's life?
Mr. DEAN - Yes; did I learn of a telephone call?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - I heard Captain Frazier, I believe it was, talking to Captain Talbert, and in my presence, and several others. I don't remember which ones, sergeants and a lieutenant or so, that I believe it was Sheriff Decker called during the night and asked that Oswald be moved during the night sometime.
Mr. GRIFFIN - When did this conversation take place; how soon after you came to work?
Mr. DEAN - It was some time---probably it would have been a little before 7 o'clock because we meet downstairs at 7 o'clock sharp.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I see.
Mr. DEAN - In the detail room.
Mr. GRIFFIN - So this would have been almost within a few minutes of the time that you had walked in?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well, were Talbert and Frazier--and who else was present during the conversation?
Mr. DEAN - I believe Lieutenant Pierce was there, myself and Sergeant Putnam might have been there. Several other sergeants. See, this is the change time and all of his supervisors, Captain Frazier's and Captain Talbert's, the ones that are working that day, they will generally be in the office at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Off the record. (Discussion off the record.)


Mr. GRIFFIN - Could you tell me where we were? (The record was here read by the reporter. )
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember any other things that were said? Try to think about what these people said when this topic was brought up.
Mr. DEAN - Captain Frazier said something to the effect that he had called Captain Fritz when Sheriff Decker called to request the movement of Oswald, and Captain Fritz stated that he didn't think that Chief Curry wanted him moved during the night, that it was--he would be moved some time this day, that day, rather than in the night. It would be this day. That's where I got it that he was to be moved on the 24th.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, I take it that this was sort of changing of the guard at this point, and Frazier was going off duty and he was sort of passing on the word to Talbert?
Mr. DEAN - Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What did Talbert say in response to that information?
Mr. DEAN - I don't remember. The thing that I got, or impression that I got, was that they were just waiting for Chief Curry to say to move him, until they had proper authorization to move him, from our department rather than from the sheriff.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Was Rio Pierce present at that time?
Mr. DEAN - I think that he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And it is my understanding of this situation that you had there at that time is Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce and the sergeants that were all under them, kind of a general briefing?
Mr. DEAN - That's correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did Talbert then discuss this matter with you people who were on his shift?
Mr. DEAN - Not at this time. We went back downstairs to the basement to the whole detail. This is to assign the patrolmen out on their tour of duty, to brief them of the new orders, if there had been any, and generally to get the men out in the field in the squad cars. This happens at 7 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you send all the men out that you normally would send out?
Mr. DEAN - Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - At that time?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; with some few that we would use, the ones of which 1 can't recall. I imagine it would have been equivalent to three or four men that we would have kept in the city hall itself.
Mr. GRIFFIN - At that time did you have any thought of how you would assemble the necessary men to handle the transfer?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, after you had this initial meeting with Talbert, what did you do?
Mr. DEAN - Now, you are referring to after the detail?
Mr. GRIFFIN - After you assigned these men, and what you called the general orders?
Mr. DEAN - We went back to the second floor, back to Captain Talbert's office, which is the general offices for the patrol division.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What happened up there?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I don't remember anything specific until about--I, myself, went to the third floor to familiarize myself with the happenings, about the news cameramen and just to get an idea of what was going on and who was to be present, such as that, because I had been off. This was my first day back since in a week, in fact. I had been on a few days vacation to go hunting.
Mr. GRIFFIN - At the time you went up to the third floor, did you have any idea as to what your general responsibilities were going to be for the day?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I think I am misleading you. First of all, you have some general responsibility, standard responsibilities that you have every day?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What are those particular responsibilities?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I am assigned to a zone area that has a group of 6 squads that work for me, equivalent to 15 men.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What zone is that?
Mr. DEAN - No. 110. It's in the eastern portion of Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Is that the Love Field area?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; this is the Love Field area is north Dallas. I am in the eastern portion of Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I see. And do you normally handle most of your duties from right within the police station?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I have various paperwork to do in the office at times. Generally I am out in the car, answering calls with the squads, or when they need advice, supervision, well, I generally answer their calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Now, when you met with Talbert the second time upon the second floor, did you have any idea at that time that your duties would be any different on Sunday than they were on any other-date?
Mr. DEAN - I assumed that I would probably confine myself to the city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How did you happen to make that assumption?
Mr. DEAN - Well, because of my seniority. It was just assumed that they would want me there.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, so you went up to the third floor then
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And who did you talk to and who did you see up there on the third floor?
Mr. DEAN - No one in particular, I Just went up to see what was going on on the third floor. This is the first time I had been to the third floor. There were numerous cameras there, lot of cables. Just as you get off the elevator there was a lot of cameras.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What time would you estimate that you were up on the third floor?
Mr. DEAN - Probably 8 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you go up to the third floor again during the morning; that is between that time and the time that Oswald was shot, did you have occasion to go back to the third floor?
Mr. DEAN - I believe I did, but for no specific purpose.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well, if you can separate out the different times that you might have been up there, I want to know as best you recall whether there were news people up there on the third floor when you went up this first time, around--what did you say, 8 o'clock?
Mr. DEAN - Yes. Were there news people up there?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you see newspaper people up there at that time?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you recall whether the TV cameras were manned at that time?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you recall whether these people seemed to be operating the cameras, shooting footage or did they seem to be in any sort of operation?
Mr. DEAN - They did have a monitor, small monitor set that they had the cameras on. However, they weren't broadcasting at the time. They might have been taping. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you see any other people that you thought were newsmen up there, other than those manning the cameras?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. Pressmen. Newspaper people, none of which I can recall that I knew myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What's your best estimate of the. number of news people that were up there at about 8 o'clock?
Mr. DEAN - Twenty-five, possibly.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did this create to you what appeared to be a crowded condition?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, how long did you remain up there on the third floor?
Mr. DEAN - Oh, maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And do you recall if you went into the homicide bureau?
Mr. DEAN - Sometime during that morning I did step into the homicide bureau However, I don't know who I talked to. And then there wasn't any specific reason that I did go in there. I just stepped in. The hall was very crowded. It might have been Just that I was close to the homicide office and I stepped in there to get out of the crowd, because it was the least congested. There were no newsmen or pressmen in there, no cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN - Were you able to tell, when you were up there at about 8 o'clock, what the general impression seemed to be as to when Oswald would be moved
Mr. DEAN - The impression I got, there was anticipation from the newsmen that--and the hopes of the newsmen, that he would probably be moved that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN - But as to how early in the day, did you get any idea of what they were thinking of?
Mr. DEAN - No, Sir. This was at anytime. This was the impression I got, at anytime he could be moved. They were ready to start shooting, or go live television, I am sure, at anytime, at a moment's notice.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did they ask you any particular questions?
Mr. DEAN - None specific; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did they attempt to approach you or shout things at you?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember any other bureaus you went in on the third floor?
Mr. DEAN - That was all.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, where did you go from the third floor?
Mr. DEAN - Went back down to the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And who did you see down there?
Mr. DEAN - Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember any conversation you had with them?
Mr. DEAN - Well, general conversation that morning was when possibly Oswald might be moved. Of course, I was waiting for instructions as to what to do when he was moved. I received my first instructions about 9 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who did you receive those instructions from?
Mr. DEAN - From Lieutenant Pierce.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And do you know who Lieutenant Pierce received his instructions
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What did Pierce tell you?
Mr. DEAN - His instructions were for me to take a group of men and---or whatever men I needed, and thoroughly search the garage portion of the basement, to vacate it and then thoroughly search it.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you--go ahead.
Mr. DEAN - I took about 13 reserve officers that were waiting in the assembly room, which is on the ground floor, the basement floor, along with Sergeant Putnam, Officer L. E. Jez, and A. R. Brock, and these 13 reserves that were in the detail room at that time, names of which I don't know. They were commanded by Captain Arnett. I do know this. And Captain Arnett assisted in the search, too. We vacated the basement of all people.
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Are you talking about Just the garage area or the entire basement?
Mr. DEAN - The garage area. And I assigned Officer R. E. Vaughn to the entrance ramp, which is entering on Main Street, Officer R. C. Nelson to the doorway coming from the police and court building and into the basement, and Officer B. G. Patterson the Commerce Street ramp, which is the exit, and I assigned one reserve officer to the southern portion of the basement, to the stairways that lead into the subbasement or the machine room.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, the regular officers that you assigned were Vaughn, Nelson, and Patterson, is that right?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Were any of those men members of your platoon?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; all of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How did they happen to be in the building at that time?
Mr. DEAN - I believe they were the officers that we retained that morning to assist us for whatever might have to be done in the morning, or during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did they normally have assignments in patrol cars some place?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; all of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who made the decision to keep those men in
Mr. DEAN - I would imagine Lieutenant Pierce. To retain them at city hall during the day?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - I imagine Lieutenant Pierce did.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Can I ask you directly, you did not, if I understand correctly, you did not make that decision?
Mr. DEAN - To retain them at the city hall?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes, sir.
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; they were there and I utilized them for this purpose.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, were there other people who were retained at city hall besides those three men in the platoon?
Mr. DEAN - There were other men that were called back in from patrol duty to supplement what men we had at the central headquarters.
Mr. GRIFFIN - But these were the only three men who actually stayed back and never went out to the field at all?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Any particular reason that you can think of why those three men should have been kept there?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; other than Just assignment, routine assignment. I mean it could have been someone else as well as it was them.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, you assigned reserve officers--somebody, rather
Mr. DEAN - To the southern portion of the basement?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes, sir.
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why did you put a guard on that door, or in that area?
Mr. DEAN - For security reasons.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you have any reason to think that it would be possible to get through from the subbasement?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I knew that there were doors going into the subbasement from--however, I checked them and they were locked, but still there was a possibility, since you did have doors there, or ingress from the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you know where the ingress from the street to the sub-basement is?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; as you enter on Commerce Street, going down into the basement, there is a door on the southern side of the just before you go into the main part of the basement, that leads down. It's the porters' quarters, that leads down to the porters' quarters.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Is there any other entrance into that subbasement?
Mr. DEAN - The elevators in the new city hall is the only ones that you can get in, is the only place, other than the ramp-- -we had all places covered. In fact, I assigned-
Mr. GRIFFIN - No. I am talking about the subbasement now.
Mr. DEAN - The garage portion?
Mr. GRIFFIN - That's right.
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; there is no other place.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Other than that door that comes into Commerce Street?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; well, there is a door that was locked, another door that's used as a--oh, I think they sometimes throw materials--it's not even an elevator. It appears to be an elevator door, if you open it up, it's a straight drop into the subbasement.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where is that?
Mr. DEAN - I had the maintenance man open this door for me. He did and I could see that you couldn't--or it would be hard for a man to climb up a straight wall to open these doors. You couldn't open them from the inside or the sub-basement side of the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, do you have a clear recollection as to whether or not any TV or radio or other wires came through the subbasement door up to the basement area in the garage?
Mr. DEAN - There were none coming out. From the subbasement into the garage area?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - There were
Mr. GRIFFIN - Were there any TV or radio or other wires coming into the garage area other than through the ramps?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you give these people you stationed in the garage area, Nelson and the. reserve officer and--who was it that you stationed--did you station somebody by the elevators at that time?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; Brock.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Those three men, did you give them any specific instructions?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What were those instructions?
Mr. DEAN - That they were to let no one in other than--well, first that they were to let no one in until we had completely searched the basement, and then that we would notify them after we had completed the search, and then they were to let no one in except authorized pressmen, properly identified pressmen, newsmen, or policemen.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you have some reason to think that those people might be coming through the entranceways that they were guarding?
Mr. DEAN - Did I have some reason to think this?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - It was strictly security. I was doing exactly what my orders were, to keep all people out. As far as any reason other than strictly security; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What I am suggesting, really, is that you could have given them a blanket order, "Don't let anybody in there"?
Mr. DEAN - That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Any reason why you didn't give them that blanket order? Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN - Where were we?
(The record was here read by the reporter. )

Mr. DEAN - To just let no one in?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - Well, just a moment. Let me I knew that the pressmen--I am wondering where I--it was Just generally assumed to me that the pressmen would be allowed to witness the movement of Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN - But from these doors, now, the men that were on the ramps, of course, you would expect an influxion of people down those ramps, but from those interior doors in the garage, I am wondering what expectation you could have that anybody would be coming through there? I am not asking. this question to try to trip you up or anything like that, but I am just wondering if you thought about this? You might think of something that you had in mind that might shed some light on this.
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; the only thing, I was searching the basement and to do this I had to clear the basement to satisfy myself that there was no one in the basement, and after I was satisfied with this, then the press and the police officers could come back in the basement, if they were properly identified.

Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, when you instructed Nelson and Brock and the reserve officer, were Vaughn and Patterson also present?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Of course, they were guarding the ramps?
Mr. DEAN - Right. Patterson, Vaughn were guarding the ramps, and that was my instructions to them, to keep everyone out until we had completed the search. Then after we had completed the search, to let no one in other than properly identified pressmen or policemen, and to not to leave those assignments unless they were relieved by myself or Sergeant Putnam.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, can you give us some idea of how many cars there were in the garage at that time?
Mr. DEAN - Some, I would say 25 or 30.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Were these cars eventually moved out at any time?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; some few of them were district squad cars that had come in with prisoners, and then, of course, they left, but as a mass movement to move the cars out, we didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who checked the stairway door in the garage that leads up into the municipal building?
Mr. DEAN - The stairway door?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - I don't know of any door that leads up into the----the stairway?
Mr. GRIFFIN - There is a stairway----
Mr. DEAN - That goes down into the subbasement?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well now, over where the elevators arc
Mr. DEAN - Oh, Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - You know what I am talking about?
Mr. DEAN - Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who checked that door?
Mr. DEAN - Sergeant Putnam checked it once and I checked it once and it was locked.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you know at the time you checked it that even though the door was locked from the outside, it could be opened from the inside?
Mr. DEAN - [No response.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me state this again. Even though the door would be locked from the garage side, that from the stairway side it would be unlocked; were you aware of that?
Mr. DEAN - I believe we asked the maintenance man about this, and I believe he locked it so as it couldn't be unlocked from either side unless they had a key. I believe Sergeant Putnam called this to the maintenance man's attention, and I recall being there at the time they were discussing it, and I think at that time the maintenance man locked the door so it couldn't be unlocked from either side other than with a key.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you recall the name of this maintenance man?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I don't know. I didn't know his name to start with. However, I did know he was the maintenance man, by sight.
Mr. GRIFFIN - When did you get ahold of this maintenance man?
Mr. DEAN - Sergeant Putnam, I believe, had gotten--or had thought about this and asked him, or he had gotten in touch with him some way.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Was this at the same time you had the 13 men in the garage searching, or at some later time?
Mr. DEAN - This was during the search.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And do you know where this maintenance man was located
Mr. DEAN - NO, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - When Putnam found him?
Mr. DEAN - I don't. I do know I sent for him one time, or had an officer to go page the maintenance man to meet me, to have him unlock this door in question, that I thought---or I wanted it opened so I could see in it, to see if it was a service elevator or what. I had never seen that door opened before.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you make any inquiries about the passenger elevators?
Mr. DEAN - Coming into the garage portion?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - Yes; they were operating at the time. I think there were two colored boys that were operating the elevators, and we told them not to come down to the basement for any reason. And we posted Brock there at the elevators.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, so that we understand what we are talking about, my recollection is that there is another elevator that's a service elevator also?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. This was the one that was operating, primarily, that morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I think we can help things out here somewhat. This is a diagram of the basement area, and I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5007."
Now, making reference, Sergeant, to this particular diagram here, at the time you. searched the garage, it is my understanding that what's marked on here as elevators Nos. 1 and 2 were operable, that there were some colored boys in there, or somebody who was operating those elevators?
Mr. DEAN - No. I believe those were not in operation, Nos. 1 and 2. The service elevator was, I do know. There was the parking attendant, a colored boy, and he sits here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why don't you put a mark on that diagram there, make it an X?
Mr. DEAN - All right [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - And do you want to label that parking attendant, or whatever you think is appropriate?
Mr. DEAN - All right [indicating], this is a colored boy that usually sits here. He has a bench there he sits on until he is needed. We made him leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Made him leave?
Mr. DEAN - In fact, I think he was relieved from duty that day, because I took him out of the Commerce Street ramp.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And was there somebody operating that service elevator?
Mr. DEAN - The Service elevator?
Mr. GRIFFIN - How many people were in that service elevator?
Mr. DEAN - There was one. When I said two persons I was thinking of the elevator operator, which is also a colored boy, and the parking attendant.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you want to Just put an X on the service elevator, to indicate there was somebody in there?
Mr. DEAN - All right, sir [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, you want to place a mark at approximately the place that you stationed the men who were guarding the 'entrance to the subbasement, this reserve officer?
Mr. DEAN - Oh, the subbasement. Let me see [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me explain this diagram to you. This is the basement, this dotted line here is the upstairs [indicating].
Mr. DEAN - Oh, I see.
Mr. GRIFFIN - This actually goes under the sidewalk here [indicating].
Mr. DEAN - This is where the reserve officer was [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, where did you station Brock?
Mr. DEAN - Put him in a position that he could see this door here and also these three elevators [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, who else did you station in the basement?
Mr. DEAN - No One well, Nelson was--let's see, Nelson was here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - And where did you place Vaughn and where did you place Patterson?
Mr. DEAN - Is this the exit proper, door, here to the--[indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes. This would be the top of the ramp here [indicating].
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Now, you want to sign this down here and mark on there the time, sign it there and then in the middle of the diagram, so it doesn't confuse things here, put the well, sign it over under here. If we put time in here, somebody may think that was the time that you made the mark on here. Then if you would label this status of basement, whenever it was that-- [ indicating].
Mr. DEAN - During the search?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay. Very good. Now, you have marked on here approximately 9:15 to 9:30 a.m. I am not going to ask you what you found there and so forth, because you have made a full statement on it. We know, for example, you found a rifle in the back of one of the police cars?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, after the search was completed, where did you go?
Mr. DEAN - The pressmen were allowed to come back in.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me ask you this, where had they been removed to?
Mr. DEAN - Into the police court building, or the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN - By the records room?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I see. And they were allowed back in the basement?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What is your best estimate of the number of policemen that came back into the basement?
Mr. DEAN - Well, of course, it increased as the time went on, so it would be hard to
Mr. GRIFFIN - How many newspapermen did you have to clear out of the basement at 9:15, approximately?
Mr. DEAN - Oh, approximately 15 or 20, maybe 25.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, when you went down into the basement, before the search, were there any TV cameras down there?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; I believe there was.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you want to indicate on the map here where it is that you think the TV cameras, or camera was placed?
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you recall if there was a TV camera at this location [indicating]?
Mr. DEAN - I believe there was.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, I am referring, so that the record will reflect this, to a TV camera that's in the entranceway from the ramp, towards the jail office, and it's on the Commerce Street wall, along the Commerce Street wall. Did you move that TV camera at that time?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir. Moved the operators away from it.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, what did you do after that, after you completed the search and let the people back into the basement?
Mr. DEAN - Let me think. I believe I stayed in the basement area.
Mr. GRIFFIN - At the time that you completed the search, had you heard anything about the time that Oswald would be moved?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Had you heard anything about the route that he would be moved by?
Mr. DEAN - At the time
Mr. GRIFFIN - That you completed the search?
Mr. DEAN - Yes. About, somewhere around 9:45, Captain Talbert sent me a group of regular officers that had been called in off of patrol district. [ Indicating. ]
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, can I help you?
Mr. DEAN - My report [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes [indicating].
Mr. DEAN - I didn't have in my original report, I do have in my original notes in my locker, as to some traffic assignments that I made. This was about 9:45. These men were sent to me by Captain Talbert. I briefed them about here in the basement, away from everyone, to let no one know the route. This is when Captain Talbert advised me that the route would be to leave the Commerce Street side, go to the expressway, north to Main [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Is that Pearl Expressway or Central Expressway?
Mr. DEAN - Central Expressway. And then west on Main to the county courthouse, or the sheriff's office.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit here. Up to this point had you heard anything about a proposed route that would have gone from Central Expressway and turned at Elm Street, rather than Main Street?
Mr. DEAN - I was thinking it was--I knew that they changed it, after I made my assignment I had to change them again, because they said they wasn't going to use it. It was either Main Street that they weren't going to use, they were going to Commerce. however, I think you are right. I think originally my assignments were made at the intersections--not Commerce, but Elm, and then they changed the they being Captain Talbert, and told me that they would not use Elm, that they would use Main Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Would you draw a big circle in this area where you instructed these men, to show roughly what area the men covered, and would you put an appropriate note on there as to what happened and what time?
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - About how many men did you give instructions to?
Mr. DEAN - 13, 15.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why don't you just put that number there?
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did those men then take police vehicles and go to their appointed spots?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. Immediately to their squad cars that had been parked outside and then--they reported into the basement to me for these assignments, they went immediately to these assignments, and these assignments were made at various intersections along the proposed route that Oswald would be transferred.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, was Brock in the basement at the time that you gave that assignment?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. However, he was still at the elevators then.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How about Patterson and Vaughn?
Mr. DEAN - They were at their stations.
Mr. GRIFFIN - After you made those assignments, what did you do?
Mr. DEAN - I moved back to the area, when you come out of the jail office, to the ramp, and this is when Lieutenant Pierce came up to me and appeared to be in a hurry--well now, the armored car had already backed into the ramp.
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. How much before
Mr. DEAN - This armored car had backed into the ramp as I was standing here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let's place these times a little bit. How long was it between the time that you instructed these 13 to 15 men to go on their posts and the time that the armored car arrived?
Mr. DEAN - Oh, 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why don't put down here where you made that note, about 10 minutes before armored car arrived?
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay. Now, how much time elapsed between the time you made assignment to these men and the time that you searched the basement?
Mr. DEAN - Fifteen or twenty minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Right. Why don't you put down here then 15 or 20 minutes before assignment to Elm Street?
Mr. DEAN - Elm Street?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Now, I understand about the time that the armored car arrived, or was it shortly after the armored car arrived, you had a conversation with Lieutenant Pierce?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How much after the armored car arrived would you say that conversation occurred?
Mr. DEAN - Five minutes after the armored car arrived.
Mr. GRIFFIN - We don't need to mark that. And this conversation with Lieutenant Pierce occurred in the entranceway, off the Main Street ramp toward the jail office?
Mr. DEAN - Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Was anybody else there when you talked with Pierce?
Mr. DEAN - There were several people around, but they didn't hear his instructions to me, I am sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. What did Pierce tell you?
Mr. DEAN - He said for me to go to the armored car, to the rear of the armored ear, and to get him two men to go with him, and he said, "Now." Sergeant Putnam was maybe 15 or 20 feet from me, and I instructed him to get an unassigned man immediately and to go with Lieutenant Pierce, and Lieutenant Pierce, by this time, of course, he was going to get his car, or walking over to his ear. Sergeant Putnam got--told Sergeant Maxey to go with him, and those three got into Lieutenant Pierce's car with Lieutenant Pierce driving, and I went to the rear of the armored ear that had backed in, which was some, I guess 30 feet, 30 to 35 feet from where the shooting was. This armored ear backed down, and I imagine it would probably be around 30 to 35 feet. As soon as I got to the armored car I turned around and looked back, and this is when I saw Lieutenant Pierce in this plain black ear trying to get past the newsmen and to go out the wrong way.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Up the Main Street ramp?
Mr. DEAN - Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, is my understanding correct that from the time that you placed your guards in the basement and then began the search, until Pierce's car drove up the ramp, you did not leave the basement area?
Mr. DEAN - That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, as you saw Pierce's car go out of the move out of the garage area, who was in that car?
Mr. DEAN - Sergeant Maxey and Sergeant Putnam, Lieutenant Pierce was driving it. I do recall that Sergeant Putnam had. to get out of the car and tell some people to move out of the way so they could drive out.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, where did he get out of the car?
Mr. DEAN - Just as they were turning from the basement to go up the ramp, about this location [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you see him get back in the car?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where did you see him get back in the car?
Mr. DEAN - Same place.
Mr. GRIFFIN - So when he drove through this next line of newsmen, when the car went through this next line of newsmen, is it your recollection that Sergeant Putnam was back in the car, or did he follow the car up ahead and clear these others?
Mr. DEAN - I believe he walked on up for a few steps, not too far, and then when he did see that the way was clear he got into the car then, but he did get out of the car to clear the way for the car to move out of the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I see. Now, did you watch him go out of the ramp up there?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And did you see what. he did when he got to the top of the ramp?
Mr. DEAN - I couldn't see to the top of the ramp. It's obscured, from where I was. I was .halfway up this ramp and I couldn't see to the top of the ramp
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you watch him, though, go up until you lost sight of him.
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, during the period that you were looking toward Putnam's car, were you able to see the people behind the car in this particular--across the Main Street ramp?
Mr. DEAN - Just as a group. I mean as a group of people.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you see anybody in that group that you recognized?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you see any police officers that you recognized there, other than Putnam?
Mr. DEAN - None that I paid any attention to. I mean if I had noticed them I could have probably seen someone .that I recognized.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes. Now, of course, you have known Jack Ruby for 4 or 5 years?
Mr. DEAN - I have known Jack Ruby since, I believe 19-- the early part of 1960 or the early part of 1961 It was the time that I came downtown from Oak Cliff, as a sergeant. I met him. Now, the record, or your report from the FBI says that I had known him since 1959, which is erroneous.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay. We will do that at the end of the deposition, because I want to get that straightened out.
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - But you. knew Ruby well enough so that you would recognize him on sight?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And did you see Ruby in that area there?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, after you lost sight of Pierce's car going up the ramp, what did you do?
Mr. DEAN - Well, my attention was focused to this point, because this was a tense time, and I was, of course,. watching the exit here from the Jail office [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, .did you watch how the security developed along in here; what the officers did to maintain security along here [indicating]?
Mr. DEAN - I knew that they had just lined up. However, I didn't pay any attention particularly to this at the time. I knew that Oswald was, in all probability, going to be brought out pretty soon.
Mr. GRIFFIN - As you looked toward the Main Street ramp and saw the news-men re-form along there, can you recall how deep this line of newsmen was? Do you understand what I mean by how deep?
Mr. DEAN - You mean lengthwise?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - It was probably going to about somewhere along here. They were all trying to be within view of the [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Was there junta single line along there or were there four of five or six different lines; you know, four or five behind each other, or how many?
Mr. DEAN - I know there was a double line and possibly some were standing behind them,
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, had you given any instructions prior to the time that Rio Pierce's car went up the ramp, to any men as to how to maintain security along this line of newsmen?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I hadn't. The majority of those, I think, were detectives or plainclothesmen.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you know if anybody had responsibility for giving instructions to that group?
Mr. DEAN - To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone. I am sure that they did, but I don't know who did.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you receive instructions from anybody concerning how to maintain security along the path from the Jail office door to the car that Oswald would be loaded into?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; at one time 'I know that there were several cameras set up .'in this area, and Chief Batchelor told them that they would have to leave this area and move to the basement area. I was present during Chief Batchelor's--or when he told these TV men to move out of that area, inside the jail office, that.-
Mr. GRIFFIN - TV cameras inside the jail office?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; and lights set up. This was, I believe, before the search or shortly after the search. I am thinking it was shortly after the search, that these men were told to move out of this area and move their cameras and equipment out into the garage portion of the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, sergeant, did there come a time when you learned that the route was being changed?
Mr. DEAN - The route to the sheriff's office?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - This was--I believe I received both of those instructions when I assigned those men. I had already assigned-- well, I do know that I had already assigned all these men along this traffic route, and then it had been changed. Captain Talbert said, "No; they are not going to use Main Street--or Elm Street. They are going to use Main," I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you learn this after you had already sent the men out?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well, is there anything that makes you sure about that?
Mr. DEAN - Because I reassigned them, at the same time I briefed them, and made these other assignments. I learned that the route had been changed, and I reassigned them, at the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you assign a man to the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway?
Mr. DEAN - Yes; I know that I did, but I can't recall who it was. I have that information in my locker, my original assingments.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I take it you have a lot of notes in your locker, or you have some notes?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; at a later time I will bring those to you, if you like.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I would very much appreciate it. Do you want to make a note of that? If you send them over to us tomorrow, I would appreciate that very much.
Mr. DEAN - Tomorrow?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes; and we don't need the originals if you want to--
Mr. DEAN - No; you can have them.
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Now, what did you do after you saw Pierce's car go up the ramp?
Mr. DEAN - I stood at the rear of the armored car and watched--my attention was focused to this point here, to the exit from the jail office, or the corridor here. I noticed that these two plain cars had pulled up behind, or in my same direction, and I assumed that these two cars would be loaded with officers that would follow the armored car. However, they hadn't loaded. They were pulling into position here and had gotten into position when all the confusion started [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me interrupt your train of thought here. In looking at this map, it occurs to me that we don't have Nelson marked on this map [indicating].
Mr. DEAN - Nelson is here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Oh, okay; now, do you know if Brock was pulled off this station at anytime prior to the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; he was told to stay there.
Mr. GRIFFIN - But you don't know of your own knowledge
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Whether he was there at that time?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Now, as the two police cars moved into position on the Commerce Street ramp behind the armored car, what happened, what did you see happen and what did you do?
Mr. DEAN - I heard someone say, "Here he comes, they are bringing him out." Of course, you could hear voices, loud voices, or excitement, and then I saw a man just dart in--this was during all the confusion, before the shooting, but I do recall seeing a man dart out. I couldn't tell who he was. It was that fast [witness snaps fingers].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where did he seem to dart from?
Mr. DEAN - From the rail over here. The side just dart out from a group of people that were standing against the rail facing the exit [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Can you mark there with an "X" and a circle around it, approximately where he was and how close he was to this railing? Do you think he was fight on ,the railing or [indicating]--
Mr. DEAN - Well, the railing--you have a curb there and then I don't recall how wide that curb is, but the railing, you can lean against standing on the ramp itself [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes; how far would you say he was from that railing?
Mr. DEAN - I would say he was up against the railing.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, is that the man that shot Oswald?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why don't you put a circle and an "X" down there and write Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, where was "Blackie" Harrison standing?
Mr. DEAN - I didn't recognize or didn't notice "Blackie" Harrison. I do recall now and I know where he was standing, next to him, from films I have seen since then. However, I didn't even know he was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, as I understand from your statement, and interrupt me if I am incorrect, when you saw Ruby shoot Oswald, you moved toward the struggle and then Ruby was taken into the jail office, and did you follow them on in?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. I ran immediately, jumped over these cars, or one of them, jumped over the hood of it, over the top of it, and they were dragging--Ruby and several detectives that were subduing him were about at the door, or [-indicating]-
Mr. GRIFFIN - I had just as soon not have you mark at this point.
Mr. DEAN - Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I understand why you want to, but-
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you hear, between the time that you saw Ruby move toward Oswald and the time that you reached him, did you hear anything said?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, what did you do when you reached Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I ran to assist, whatever I could do, or assist the officers, not knowing exactly what had happened---or I knew that there had been a shooting. However, they had enough men that were subduing him, and I asked the question, when they had him on the floor inside the jail office, "Who in the world is it?" And--
Mr. GRIFFIN - Couldn't you tell by looking at him?
Mr. DEAN - No; at the time I couldn't see him because there were so many over him. And they were well, his face was hidden from me by the amount of officers that were around him. I said, "Who in the world is it?" And evidently I was talking loud over all the other voices, and evidently Ruby heard me and said, "I am Jack Ruby. You all know me."
Mr. GRIFFIN - And how long did you remain with Jack Ruby there in the jail office?
Mr. DEAN - I immediately walked around to where Oswald was laying.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And how long did you remain there where Oswald was?
Mr. DEAN - Oh, maybe less than a minute. I saw that the doctor--there was an emergency doctor working on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where did you go from there?
Mr. DEAN - I went back out to the basement, out to where the shooting happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What did you do out there?
Mr. DEAN - I was trying to keep all the people in. I heard Captain Talbert say, "Don't let anyone out." And I was echoing his instructions to the men on the ramp, to not let anyone in or out, no one.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did there come a time while you were down there in the basement that you were interviewed by TV men?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; that was after I had--just some few minutes, I don't know, that several newsmen had--or did interview me, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember which TV station that was?
Mr. DEAN - Tom Pettit is with NBC, I believe. I did know one of the local men, Bob Huffaker. He is with KRLD-TV. But there were several. I don't know
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Now, there was also a time, undoubtedly, that you were interviewed, or somebody quoted you in the newspapers, and there was a great to-do about this, as I understand, in the police department. Somebody claimed-
Mr. DEAN - Misquoted me, yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, was that at this particular TV interview; was that when you made the statement?
Mr. DEAN - The newspaper article that appeared, the news or the writer of that story told me that he wrote that story from my initial interview that was given shortly after the shooting, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, do you recall talking with that man down there?
Mr. DEAN - The man that wrote the
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yea.
Mr. DEAN - No, sir. I wouldn't know him by sight now.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you recall ever seeing that man?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, after you had this TV interview, what did you do?
Mr. DEAN - I went to the third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And where did you go on the third floor?
Mr. DEAN - Just as I got off of the elevator Chief Curry approached me, along with another man. He introduced him very quickly as Forrest V. Sorrels, with the Secret Service, or head of the Secret Service here in Dallas, gave me his keys to the outer door that has--or access to the jail elevator, told me to take Mr. Sorrels to the fifth floor to talk to Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, between the time that you left the jail office
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And you went into the basement area and had the TV interview and then went up to the third floor, did you talk with any of the police officers who had been down there in the basement area?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - While you were in the Jail office, before you came out, did you talk to any of the officers who were there, who were in the jail office; did you talk with them?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, why were you going up to the third floor?
Mr. DEAN - I was going to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And what were you going to do up there?
Mr. DEAN - I was just going to see if Jack Ruby was in Captain Fritz' office, or whether he was taken immediately to the jail. I didn't know where he was taken to.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why did you want to go up to see Jack Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - To see if they were this was in my mind, to see if they were going to go ahead and identify him, because I knew other pressmen and other people were going to be asking me, since I had this interview, and see if--did he want me to go ahead and identify him or do what I did in the initial interview, say that this information will have to come from Captain Fritz' office. It really wasn't significant. I knew that I would be talked to at later times all during the day and pressed for the identity of this man, and I wanted to ask them there did they want us to release it or want them to keep it and release it themselves.
Mr. GRIFFIN - You had already told the newsmen?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. I had already told the newsmen this. I .didn't identify the man.
Mr. GRIFFIN - You had already told the newsmen that the man who shot Oswald was Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir. I didn't. I didn't identify the man. They asked me did recognize this man. I said "Yes." And they asked me could I tell them who he was, and-I said I had rather not, and I did not identify him as Ruby. I identified him as a businessman in the city of Dallas, but I did tell them that I recognized the man by sight.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, when you got up on the third floor, where did you see Chief Curry?
Mr. DEAN - Just as I got off of the elevator.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And did you ask him to discuss this problem with you?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir. He immediately introduced--said, "This is Mr. Forrest V. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service in Dallas, and take my keys and take him to the fifth floor to interview Ruby."
Mr. GRIFFIN - You got up to the fifth floor, who was with Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - Detective Archer, D. R. Archer, Detective T. D. McMillon and Detective B. S. Clardy is the three, and that's the only three I can recall standing there. I think that was all that was with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Was there a jailer there?
Mr. DEAN - Not standing there necessarily by him. There, of course, are jailers all over the floor, and you know, there were not particularly around him though. The only ones I can recall standing close to Ruby was those three detectives.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What state of dress or undress was Ruby in at that time?
Mr. DEAN - He was stripped to his shorts.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, what did you do when you got up there?
Mr. DEAN - I walked immediately to him. I heard--well, immediately I told him, I said, "This is Mr. Forrest V. Sorrels"-- started the introduction, and Ruby stopped me and he said, "I know who he is. He is with the FBI." Mr. Sorrels then informed him. He said, "No. I am not with the FBI. I am with the Secret Service." And then he again told him, "I want you to know that I am not with the FBI. I am with the Secret Service." And so Ruby said something to the effect, "Well, I knew that you were working for the Government."
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember Ruby making any remark to Sorrels to the effect, "Are you with the newspapermen"?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. I recall most all of that conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Tell us what that conversation was.
Mr. DEAN - After Sorrels had identified himself as a Secret Service man, he said, "I want to ask you some questions." And then Ruby asked him, "Is this for the magazines or press?" And he said, "No. It's for my information, as an agent." And he said, "Okay. I will answer all your questions."
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember any discussion with him, anything Sorrels said about his acquaintanceship in the Jewish community?
Mr. DEAN - Sorrels asked him first, I believe
Mr. GRIFFIN - No. I am not making myself clear. I am sorry. Did Sorrels say anything to Ruby about Sorrels' acquaintanceship among the Jewish merchants, that you recall?
Mr. DEAN - No. I don't--seems like he said something, that he had--that he knew some Jewish--I don't recall exactly what, but relative to what you are asking, he did say something about he was acquainted with some person that was a Jew, something to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Are you acquainted with the name of a guy named Honest Joe?
Mr. DEAN - Right. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Tell us what you remember about that.
Mr. DEAN - Well, he said, "Well, I know Honest Joe or"----In other words, the only thing that I got out of that was that he knew Honest Joe. This wasn't relative to what I wanted to find out from Ruby, and I just disregarded this from my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did this take place inside the jail cell?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir. He was in the hallway or the corridor outside a jail cell. He hadn't been placed in a cell.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And were Archer, Clardy, and McMillon ground during this conversation?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. I think they stood there.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And how long would you say that Sorrels talked with Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - Oh, 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, do you remember anything that Sorrels learned from Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Can you tell us what that was?
Mr. DEAN - Yes. He asked him what possessed him to do it. Of course, I have testified to all this in court. And he said that he was---had been despondent over the assassination of the President, also Officer Tippit, and that he was a very emotional man, and that out of grief for both these people, was one of the motivations, and that he couldn't see any reason for a long and lengthy trial, even though he believed in due process of law.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did he talk with Sorrels at all at that time about how he got into the basement?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir. I asked him--Sorrels didn't ask any questions relative to that. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How long after Sorrels finished talking with Ruby did you ask that question?
Mr. DEAN - Immediately. After Mr. Sorrels said, "Okay. Thank you." And I don't recall whether Mr. Sorrels stayed there or whether he walked off.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who else was present when you asked Ruby that question?
Mr. DEAN - I think McMillon and them were still there. I just really didn't--I knew that I wasn't by myself with him. I knew that there was someone there and I believe it was McMillon and Archer that had stayed there. I am not
Mr. GRIFFIN - What else did you talk with Ruby about, after Sorrels finished talking to him?
Mr. DEAN - After Sorrels finished, I said, "Ruby, I want to ask you a couple of questions myself." And he said, "All right." I said, "How did you get in the basement?" And he said, "I walked in the Main Street ramp." And he told me, he said, "I have just been to the Western Union to mail a money order to Fort Worth." And he said, "I walked from the Western Union to the ramp." And he said, "I saw Sam Pierce "and he referred to him as Sam Pierce "drive out of the basement. At that time, at the time the car drove out is when I walked in."
Mr. GRIFFIN - Is there a Sam Pierce on the force?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. He is a lieutenant. He is here tonight.
Mr. GRIFFIN - His name is also Rio Pierce?
Mr. DEAN - Lt. Rio S. Pierce, yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Does he go by the. name Sam?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Does he also go by the name Rio?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Is one used
Mr. DEAN - Just as much as the other. Depends on who met him under which name.
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Now, what else did he talk to you about at that particular time?
Mr. DEAN - After he answered that question, I said, "How long had you been in the basement when Oswald came into your view?" And he said, "I just walked in. I Just walked to the bottom of the ramp when he came out."

Mr. GRIFFIN - What else did you talk to him about at that time?
Mr. DEAN - That's all. I heard all of Sorrels' questions and I heard all-of Ruby's answers.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, as far as the questioning of Sorrels is concerned, did you testify to that at the Ruby trial?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, after you finished this conversation with Ruby about how he got down into the basement, what did you do?
Mr. DEAN - Caught the elevator back down to the basement and got my gun that had been taken there by a patrolman. If I am not mistaken, I rode down on the same elevator with Mr. Sorrels, and then I went back up to the third floor to Chief Curry's office and took him his keys that he had given me.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What were the keys to?
Mr. DEAN - They were well, it was a keyring with a lot of keys on it, but he had given me these to gain entrance to the door that's always locked on the third floor of the jail elevator.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And then how long did you stay down there with Chief Curry?
Mr. DEAN - Just long enough to give him his keys.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where did you go after that?
Mr. DEAN - [No response.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you go back to homicide?
Mr. DEAN - No; I didn't go back to homicide. I don't remember whether I went back to the basement--I believe that I did, went back to the basement to see how .things were down there. And, of course, a great number of people had left the basement, and I assume were en route or were going to the Parkland Hospital to check on--since the focal point had gone to Parkland Hospital, I assumed that's where all these people had gone.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you tell Chief Curry what Ruby had told you?
Mr. DEAN - At that time; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What did you do, now, after you went down to the first floor, the basement, you say; what did you do then?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I don't remember exactly what I did. I did go to Parkland Hospital and I got there before Oswald was pronounced dead, which I think was at 1:07, wasn't it? Somewhere around I o'clock?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - Yes; anyhow, I stayed at Parkland Hospital and
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who did you see out at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I talked to Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, and in fact, I had taken her along with some I assumed some Secret Service men, I assumed they were Secret Service men that were with her when I started talking to her. I went in with her into view the body, her and Marina Oswald, to view the body of Lee.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did somebody assign you to go out to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How did you happen to go out there?
Mr. DEAN - To check on the condition of Oswald. I knew that--well, it was just reaction for me to go out there, because I knew that I would probably be needed out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you check in with Captain Talbert before you went out?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I did check out with the dispatcher on the radio, that I was en route to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How about Lieutenant Pierce, did, you check out with him?
Mr. DEAN - I think when I got to Parkland Hospital I called him and advised him that I would be at Parkland until I notified him.
Mr. GRIFFIN - When you got out to Parkland Hospital and before you saw Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, did you talk with any police officers?
Mr. DEAN - At Parkland?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - Well, I am sure that I talked to some. Nothing specific or no orders given, no assignments or anything. I was, more than anything, I was answering questions as to what happened in the basement, from everyone, even policemen and everyone else.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And did you tell them about the conversation you had with Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you wait with Marguerite in that room with the Secret Service agents?
Mr. DEAN - No. That's--shortly after I went in to where Marguerite and Marina were, Marguerite wanted to see the body, and they tried to explain to her that they really hadn't gotten him in shape to view yet. He just came out of the operating room, and she said, well, she wanted to see him then, and she more or less was directing her statements and demands to me, since I was the only uniformed officer there, and said that she would like to go in and see him.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why did you happen to go to Marguerite?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I was just standing outside the door there where they said he was, and someone had pointed her out, and said that's the mother and the wife. No particular reason. But I did, after she asked to go in and see him, they said--the doctor said it would be all right for them, and I did go in with them, when they went in to view the body. During the time that we were in this room where Oswald's body was Mrs. Oswald, the mother, turned to me and said that at this time she wanted to make a statement to me in regard to the allegations against her son, that she could--something to the effect that she could prove that they were wrong, and about this time she was interrupted by one of the nurses telling me that I was wanted on the phone.
So I left and didn't see-----
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who had called you at that time?
Mr. DEAN - Lieutenant Pierce.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where was he?
Mr. DEAN - He was at central headquarters.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What did he have to say?
Mr. DEAN - He asked me how long. I thought I was going to be there and I said, well, I was leaving now. And then I left and came back to the city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, when you talked to Pierce on the telephone, did you tell him about your conversation with Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why not?
Mr. DEAN - I just didn't tell anyone about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, where did you find Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. DEAN - She was waiting in a room just out of the emergency room there.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember what Secret Service agents were with her at that time?
Mr. GRIFFIN - When you drove out to Parkland Hospital, did you drive out alone?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - When you drove back, did you drive back with anybody?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; by myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, what did you do when you got back to central police
Mr. DEAN - I went to our office on the second floor, the patrol captain's office.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And who was there?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I don't recall exactly. I know this was again getting close to the change time. It was somewhere around 2 o'clock, and the secretary told me that I had several phone calls waiting on me, and one of--well, there were some long distance calls that had seen me on television, and. I didn't answer all of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Any phone calls from anybody you knew?
Mr. DEAN - No; my wife had called. I mean. there had Just been a lot of people calling.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you make any phone calls when you got that message that you had calls?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; at the time, about--the only phone call that I had taken was the dispatcher called and--just about the time I walked in, and said that I had a long distance call from-oh, Chicago or somewhere, and they transferred it down there, and, of course, they were asking who this man was, how did he get in, questions that newsmen--it was from some radio station. I didn't
Mr. GRIFFIN - In Chicago. And did you tell them?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Then what did you do after that long distance telephone call from Chicago?
Mr. DEAN - Well, there was newsmen from KLIF came into the office, asked would I give him a short interview, which I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who were those people?
Mr. DEAN - This man, it was Glen Duncan. I didn't know him before, I hadn't seen him before.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Anybody else that you remember with him?
Mr. DEAN - No, .sir; he was by himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And was that a tape-recorded interview?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; station KLIF.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And how long did that interview last?
Mr. DEAN - Gosh, I don't know. Maybe 4 or 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you ever get a copy of that interview from them?
Mr. DEAN - He sent me one, and it's at home somewhere. It didn't play on my recorder and I didn't even try to play it since then.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Would you supply that to the Commission?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - If you would make a note of that, I would appreciate it.
Mr. DEAN - Any particular speed that you want this?
Mr. GRIFFIN - No; and incidentally, if you would like it transcribed at a speed that will play on your recorder, I am sure we would be happy to do that for you, and just exchange tapes, since we are taking a tape from you, we will give it back to you at a speed you can play.
Mr. DEAN - Okay; all right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, where did this KLIF interview take place?
Mr. DEAN - It was on the second floor there in the small room that was unoccupied at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What did you do after that interview?
Mr. DEAN - I stayed around the office. I don't remember anything particularly that I did do. Again, answering questions of people coming on. I think that some men had been called in from off duty to report for duty. Gosh, I don't even remember what time I got off from work that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you stay around the office all the rest of the time that you were there, that you were on duty?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I would imagine that I went back to the basement. Let me think. The rest of the time I didn't do anything in particular. I mean any specific assignment that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN - But you seem to have some idea that you went back to the basement?
Mr. DEAN - Well, the reason I think that I did, I had been away from there about an hour and a half, and I just wanted to go back. I am sure that I went back down there just to check on the situation and the confusion that might have been in the basement, to see if possibly I would have to notify the on-coming platoon how many men they might need to stay around the city hall, quell this confusion.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you go back up to the third floor at all?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - The rest of that day?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you talk to any officers from the homicide bureau at all, that day, the rest of that day?
Mr. DEAN - Not that I recall; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you talk with any police officers that day, about how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who did you talk to?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; now, you are bringing something back. I know now what I did immediately--we will have to go back on the record. When I got back to the city hail, I contacted Lieutenant Pierce and advised him--that's when I talked to Pierce about my conversation with Ruby, and I told him that I had talked to Ruby and that he told me that--how he had gotten into the basement, which was breaking security, and that Officer R. E. Vaughn was the man involved.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Ruby told you--or you told him-
Mr. DEAN - I told Lieutenant Pierce that Ruby had told me he had came in through the Main Street ramp, at which Officer Vaughn was posted.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And then what did you and Pierce do?
Mr. DEAN - He notified the captain of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Talbert?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And did Talbert come in? Were you present when Pierce notified Talbert?
Mr. DEAN - I was present when--I do know that they called Vaughn in, but I think that he had already gone home that day, and that he was off the next day, and I think they called him to tell him to come, to report to the office this next morning, to investigate whether he did let Ruby in or how he got in, or why he said he came in through his post.
Mr. GRIFFIN - You didn't talk with Vaughn the rest of the day?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And to your knowledge Pierce didn't talk with him the rest of that day?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Or Talbert?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, what else was done that day, as you recall, as a result of your telling Pierce about the conversation with Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - I am sure that--I don't know. I am thinking that Captain Talbert called Chief Fisher, notified him of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN - What's your best estimate of what time of the day that would have been, that you talked with Pierce?
Mr. DEAN - It was that afternoon, I believe, after I had gotten back from the hospital. I didn't remember it a while ago, but I think when I did get back from the hospital, that's when I told Lieutenant Pierce about it, somewhere around 2:30 or 3.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Is there any kind of record that you would have maintained, or the police department would have maintained, that would give us some better way of fixing that time?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Dispatchers? Did you call the dispatcher to tell them you were coming back?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; now, it was about 2 when I was talking--or had taken Mrs. Oswald in to view Lee, and I left then, somewhere around 2. So I got back to the station, maybe around 2:25 or 2:30, so when I told Lieutenant Pierce about it, it should have been somewhere around, maybe 3, or the first time I saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you, after coming back and talking with Pierce, make any further efforts or make any effort to talk with people who you had assigned in the basement, or who you knew were working in the basement, concerning the security of the basement?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; I did ask Nelson could he say for sure that this man didn't come through his post, and he said he could say for sure that he didn't come through the police and court building, Nelson's post.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, when did you talk with Nelson
Mr. DEAN - This was, I am sure, when I got back--probably when I got back from the hospital. I don't recall. It might have been before I went. - This was my main thought, as to how the man got into the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you call Vaughn at that time?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I asked him, just as I asked the others, had this man come through, because I knew the focal point was going to be on Vaughn, and I knew the investigation was going to be on Vaughn.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you talk with Vaughn that afternoon?
Mr. DEAN - It seems that Lieutenant Pierce and I talked to him, and I think Captain Talbert was there. It was up on the second floor. It seems that we did talk to him that day, asked him did he have any knowledge of how he got into the basement. Captain Talbert was doing most of the questioning. I told Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert what Ruby had told me, and from this he was questioning Vaughn.
Now, I think this was in the afternoon and Vaughn was scheduled to be off the next day, and Captain Talbert told him he better come on into work the next day, for the purpose, I assumed, of more investigation.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How about Nelson, when was Nelson talked to
Mr. DEAN - Well now, I talked to Nelson myself. I don't know. I am sure that somebody else did too, but I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Was that before or after you talked with Vaughn?
Mr. DEAN - I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And where did that conversation with Nelson take place?
Mr. DEAN - He was still on his post when I talked to him. Of course, this--whether it was before I went to the hospital or--I am sure that it probably was before I went to the hospital, that I asked Nelson could he say for certain that this man hadn't come by him, and he said yes. And then I asked Patterson, all of them; Patterson, Nelson, Vaughn, stated the man did not come by their post, but I--the focal would be on Vaughn, since I had been told that that's where Ruby came in, by Ruby himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well now, Nelson gave a statement---
Voice - Excuse me.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN - Nelson was interviewed by the Bureau Federal Bureau of Investigation on December 4, and the Bureau indicates that he told them, and this is the Bureau's language and not his, talking about his post, he said the other officer assigned there with him was a reserve officer whose name he does not know. He was there for Just 3 or 4 minutes, when Sergeant Putnam told them to station themselves just behind the first Jail office window, for people were coming in, in regard to jail office business, such as. seeing prisoners. They were instructed not to let any unauthorized' persons through the door or ramp leading into the basement.
Okay, when I read that I was mistaken as to where I thought he was standing, so that I was under the impression he was pulled off of his post, but that would entirely consistent. Apparently all they did was to move him a few feet. Well, the jail office window, you have three here. One, two, and three windows--so [indicating]. Well now, did you talk with Bobby Patterson at all?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; I asked him could he say for sure that this man didn't come in his post.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And when did you talk with him?
Mr. DEAN - Some time before I went to the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you talk with a reserve officer by the name of Newman?
Mr. DEAN - I don't recall the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you talk with this reserve officer who was stationed over in this area here, as you have indicated on the map [indicating]?
Mr. DEAN - I asked Sergeant Putnam--in fact, we had talked during the day about this man, whether to keep him or not, and I said definitely keep him there, tell him to remain there. Now, I don't recall talking to this man specifically about seeing if anyone had come through here. I was fairly certain that they hadn't. The main thing I was thinking about was that Ruby told me he came in here. I had no reason to doubt him, but I didn't know how he had gotten in, other than what he had said, just walking down, and I knew that this was putting R. E. Vaughn in dereliction of his duty.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well, now; it's my understanding you talked with Patterson before you went to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And you talked with Vaughn and Nelson after you went to Parkland?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I probably asked all of them the question, "Did you see this man come in here; do you know him?" And, of course, Vaughn said he knew him, Patterson said he knew him. I don't recall whether Nelson said he knew him or not, but that Patterson and Vaughn both stated, and along with Nelson, that he did not come through their post.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you talk with any of the other men who were stationed down there in the basement?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; these were the men that I assigned and gave my instructions, and those were the ones that I could talk to.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember, on November 24, talking at all with "Blackie" Harrison?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - About this?
Mr. DEAN - No, Sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How about L. D. Miller?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How about McMillon?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, you saw McMillon and, as I understand-
Mr. DEAN - He was with Jack Ruby when we interviewed him up in the jail.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - And he asked no questions. I am sure that he stood there and listened, as an interested party, or
Mr. GRIFFIN - How about Bob Lowery?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I didn't talk to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, after you had passed this information on to Pierce, as I recall, you said that you thought you might have talked with Vaughn some time that afternoon?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you remember anything else you did that afternoon besides possibly talking with Vaughn?
Mr. DEAN - Not anything else particularly, other than asking Nelson and Patterson, along with Vaughn, separately, rather, or individually, that I did ask them did this man come by them, and they said no.
Mr. GRIFFIN - By the time you left work that day, had any instructions been given with respect to preparing reports as to what happened?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; this was the next morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you file a report at the end of the day?
Mr. DEAN - At the end of the day?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes, sir.
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you make any notes that particular day, on the 24th?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; my assignments.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And other than your assignments, did you make any other notes?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir
Mr. GRIFFIN - And do yon keep those in a regular assignment book?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; just a small notebook that I had. I always--when I deal with a group of men, rather than try to remember where I put them, I always write it down.
Mr. GRIFFIN - When was the first time that you made any notes about the events, or wrote a report about the events of the 24th?
Mr. DEAN - November the--- I think probably I wrote this report on the 25th, which was the next day, but it's headed November the 26th, but I imagine that's the time the typist got to it. She was doing a lot of typing from then on, but I think the next morning is when I wrote this report.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, do you have the original notes that you made, that you used to write that report up?
Mr. DEAN - This report; yes, sir. This is the one that I will supply to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Good. When was the next time that you saw Jack Ruby, after your interview or session with him up there?
Mr. DEAN - The next time I saw him?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - In the courtroom during the trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Off the record.
(Discussion off the record. )

Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, I am going to hand you what I have marked for identification as Exhibit 5008, which is marked "Dallas, Texas, Sergeant Dean, March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5008." This is actually stapled to Exhibit 5007, but Exhibit 5008 is the report of the interview that you had with FBI Agents Paul L. Scott and Edmond C. Hardin, on December 2, 1963, in Dallas. Will you look at that, Sergeant Dean, and tell me if you had a chance to read that over? Let me ask you first of all, if you have had a chance to read it over?

Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; last night. There are some corrections [indicating]-
Mr. GRIFFIN - Will you state to us what you think should be corrected in that statement?
Mr. DEAN - On page 1, the last paragraph, I don't know whether it's too important. It says, "Dean recalled that before starting the search of the basement he assigned Officer B. G. Patterson to stand at the Commerce Street ramp leading to the basement." Now, this is actually the exit from the basement, if that means anything. The way it reads here it sounds like that's the entrance.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why don't you take my pen and change that. You might make it read, "which is the exit"--
Mr. DEAN - Exit from the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes; and if you would, just out in the margin, put your initials and the date.
Mr. DEAN - Page 2, paragraph 4, same error, Commerce Street ramp leading into the basement [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay.
Mr. DEAN - I will mark it "exit". Page 4, paragraph 3--off the record.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes; all right; that's all right.
Mr. DEAN - It says, "Dean has known Jack Ruby since 1959." This is erroneous.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How should it read?
Mr. DEAN - It should be either 1960 or 1961, whatever date I could find out and let you know for sure, the time that I came downtown from the Oak Cliff area, as a sergeant. I was assigned to the downtown area, which includes the location of Carousel Club. I have been downtown some 4 or 5 months before I was assigned to this location. So I would say it would have been about 4 or 5 months after I was transferred to the downtown area that I met Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How long were you assigned to that downtown area?
Mr. DEAN - About a year and a half.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And were you a sergeant at that time?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you have any men working under your direction?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How many men worked under your direction down there?
Mr. DEAN - Well, it would vary from the hours that I worked, from 12 to 17 or 17 men, depending on the hours. Twelve regular men, or 13 regular men.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, was Vaughn under your direction at that time?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir. Vaughn has never worked for me directly.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How about Nelson?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How about Bobby Patterson?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. Patterson worked for me when I was assigned to the area in the 100, district 100, in the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And was that the area that Jack Ruby's nightclub was in?
Mr. DEAN - Patterson occasionally worked on the district that Ruby's Carousel Club was on. Not as a regular man.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you know if Patterson was friendly with Ruby?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - You just don't know?
Mr. DEAN - I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you consider yourself a friend of Patterson's?
Mr. DEAN - Not intimately; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Do you see Patterson on a social basis?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Does Patterson still work under your direction?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Whose direction is he under now?
Mr. DEAN - Sergeant Jennings, W. G. Jennings. He is still assigned to that area. Not the specific district that the Carousel was on, or has been on, but let's see--I don't recall exactly what district he is assigned to; 103 I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Go ahead, if there is anything else. Incidentally, on this date. have we turned the page on that? The date there, why don't you make a correction as to what you think it is, and if you feel, when you check your notes, that you want to correct it even more exactly, why you can be free to do it [indicating].
Mr. DEAN - I would like to clarify this one thing. "On occasions when driving In the area with another officer, he would go up to the Carousel, usually once or twice a week." This is true, as far as once or twice a week, and sometimes three times a week. However, this--with another officer is erroneous. Usually it would be with some friend of mine that would be riding with me, rather than another officer.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay. Why don't you put that down?
Mr. DEAN - Mutual friend or
Mr. GRIFFIN - This would be somebody that would be interested in sort of riding with the police officer, like newspaper reporters do?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. "In addition, Dean said he had gone to the club while off duty on four occasions." I would say four would be the outside, but I think I have been there only three times since I have known him, since 1960 or 1961 [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Why don't you change that, then. When is the time you were there most recently?
Mr. DEAN - The last time I had been in his place was---well, we will say relative to the shooting, I haven't been in there since, and I think 6 or 8 months before would be the last time I had been in there, and in fact, that long since I had seen Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you know any of Ruby's employees?
Mr. DEAN - By name. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - But you knew them to talk to?
Mr. DEAN - To speak only. The people that were in the trial, well, George Senator, I didn't know his name. I couldn't place it--knew the face but I didn't know his name until the trial, and he was a bartender regularly at the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, was he the bartender there on a regular basis in 1960 or 1961?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. He was a regular there all the time that I worked there, or worked in that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who else did you recognize at the trial whom you remember from the Carousel Club?
Mr. DEAN - I don't believe I recognized anyone, other than this fellow George Senator.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Was there a Negro man named Andy Armstrong that testified at the trial?
Mr. DEAN - I don't know. I don't know Andy Armstrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN - He is one of Ruby's workers there. Okay. Anything else in there that [indicating]--
Mr. DEAN - Well, I would like for the record to show that my visits while off duty to the Carousel was definitely an exception rather than rule, and it would usually be when out-of-town people would come to town, and this, by my working in that area, had gone in there frequently on duty, I knew---or there had never been any trouble in there, to my knowledge, as far as fights and such as that. I knew it was a safe place for an off-duty officer to go, and interesting to someone that hadn't seen it. So this is the exception that I went there. I recall now, by reading this investigation by the FBI, that soon after I had left the basement after this shooting, or left the immediate area where Oswald was laying, I do recall now asking R. C. Nelson, that was stationed at that doorway, had he come in that way, and he then stated he was positive he hadn't. This was reflected in this--I do remember. I wanted it to show that I do remember now, after reading that.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, let me stop you here, Sergeant.
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me direct your attention to one portion of that report Have you read that portion of the report which deals with this lengthy discussion that you and I had about the talk, the one talk you had with Ruby on the date that Ruby shot Oswald; have you read that portion of the report?
Mr. DEAN - In the FBI report?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - Let's see. I don't recall reading it. You mean now have I read it?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes. Have you just read it?
Mr. DEAN - No; I haven't read it.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Would you find that, or I can maybe find it for you quicker, but would you find that portion in there and would you read that and tell me if that reports everything that you learned from Ruby at that time?
Mr. DEAN - If it's included in this report [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes. And I don't have simply reference to the discussion about entering the basement, but if it reports everything of importance that he told you during that interview?
Mr. DEAN - I believe that this February 18 report would--the FBI report doesn't include it has the questions that I asked of Ruby and not of Sorrels, if that's what you mean,, it does. But this February 18 report is what [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Let me hand you, then, what I have marked for identification as Exhibit 5010. It's a copy of a letter signed by you, dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police. Did you prepare that letter?
Mr. DEAN - Yes; I did [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - And let me ask you this, is that a true and accurate copy of the actual original letter that you. sent?
Mr. DEAN - That's a copy I made myself, a Xerox copy [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you write that letter on the basis of any notes?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; from memory.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, did you prepare any prior reports to the police department or anybody else, in connection with the events that are recounted in that February 18th letter, other than the letter dated November 26, to Chief Curry, which I have marked Exhibit 5009, and this interview report, which we have designated 5008; are there any other writings that you prepared prior to February 187
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; there is one report that I had written regarding the article in the newspaper, that I had seen Ruby come into the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I see.
Mr. DEAN - Do you have that?
Mr. GRIFFIN - I don't know if I have got that or not. Could you get us a copy of that? I don't know if we have that or not.
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; now, I think the FBI made several-or made a report of that, also. The investigation about the department there, I don't know
Mr. GRIFFIN - Well, I know they made an investigation of it, and I don't have the actual copy of the report. I have got the results of their investigation but not the report.
Mr. DEAN - I
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Other than that report on the newspaper article and these two other exhibits that I have referred to, are there any other writings that you made that relate to the subject matters as recounted in this February 18.
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Letter. Now, how did you come to write this letter of February 18, 1964?
Mr. DEAN - Chief Stevenson called me, while I was in the office on that date, and asked me to come up to see him, and I did. And he asked me was I present during the entire interview with Ruby and Mr. Sorrels. I told him I was. And he asked me did I remember most of the interview; could I recollect most of the interview and the answers that Ruby had given and I said, "Yes, sir." Then he advised me to make a report of it, asked me would I make a report of it, recalling everything that I could of that interview. To the best of my knowledge, that's all I could remember. And I did testify to all this stuff in the trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Is this the first time that you told anyone that Ruby had told Sorrels that he thought about killing Oswald two nights prior when he saw him in the showup room?
Mr. DEAN - Well, I don't recall telling it to any particular person. I knew that this would probably be later used as testimony, I felt, since it was---did make an impression on me, that I could remember it, and it's written as I do remember, just about as it happened, it correlates pretty well, even though we didn't get together with Mr. Sorrels' report.
Mr. GRIFFIN - But you can't remember?
Mr. DEAN - Talking to anyone especially or specifically about what Ruby had told me, other than how he got into the basement and how long he had been there; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Or of any particular reference to the statement that Ruby made to Sorrels that you have reported in here, about thinking about killing Oswald two nights before; you can't remember that you ever--
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I did feel at the time that I would probably testify to this in court. I did witness Mr. Sorrels taking his notes, and I felt if I had to, since I did witness it, I could use the notes.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Now, I think there is one other exhibit that I haven't identified. We have talked about it, and that's Exhibit 5009, which is a copy of a letter which purports to have been prepared by you, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963. Would you look at Exhibit 5009 [indicating]?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; that's my report [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - And you have read that over many times, have you not Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; would you like for me to sign it?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes, sir; I would like for you to sign both 5008 and 5009.
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Are there any additions or corrections you wanted to make to that?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Put a date by that, by your signature also, if you will [indicating].
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And let me hand you 5010, and ask you to sign that and date it [indicating].
Mr. DEAN - It's been signed-of course, this is a Xerox copy- Do you want me to go ahead and sign it again?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - All right [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Would you take this one here, Exhibit 5008, and would you sign that and date it [indicating]?
Mr. DEAN - Where [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN - On the front page, I think probably is just as well [indicating]. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record. )

Mr. GRIFFIN - Sergeant, you and I have been talking here off the record for--I don't have a watch, but I would guess for 15 or 20 minutes, with respect to other matters, and you indicated to me just before we brought the court reporter in, that you had obtained some information that apparently had not-been previously made available to the Commission, and I wonder if you could tell us what that is?
Mr. DEAN - It was relative to a telephone call that I received last night at about 2 o'clock in the morning. I didn't mark the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Where were you?
Mr. DEAN - At city hall. In the office there. The city hall operator had called me and told me that she had a man, or an operator on the line from Victoria, British Columbia, in Canada, and that she had been--this operator had told her she had been talking to a man in Victoria about some films that he had of the assassination, and asked me did I want to take the call, and it wasn't--it was a collect call, and the operator said that she couldn't unless it was by my authorization, but she did tell me she heard this man talk enough that she believed he was serious and had something that possibly could be used by the Warren Commission. And, of course, I heard some of the conversation, and the man sounded rational, and the operator in Victoria, her name was Bernice Williamson, she is the night supervisor of the B.C. Telephone Company, said that she had talked to this man long enough that she thought he probably had something. And so I accepted the call. This man's name was Ralph Simpson. He was calling from 384-3780, and he told me that he had been standing on the southern part of the plaza when the assassination took place, and he had a wide scope movie camera that he believed 'would have taken in the building and the motorcade at the time the shots were fired; that he had talked it over with his attorney--and the name of the attorney was Batter [spelling] B-a-t-t- e-r, is what I got, and that Batter advised him to call someone here, but not the Warren Commission. And he asked me--when I accepted the call, he asked me what I would suggest, and I told him that first he should mail them to the Warren Commission. And then he asked me had I been to the Warren Commission. He recognized my name, that I had been testifying, and I said, "Yes; and I am scheduled to go back tomorrow night." And he said, "Well, I will send the films to you. They haven't been--". Well, he said they hadn't been developed, and he wasn't going to have them developed, that he would send them to me airmail. This was about 2 o'clock in the night--on the morning of the 24th, this morning [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. You have in front of you, Sergeant, a piece of paper?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; what I took notes
Mr. GRIFFIN - Are those your original notes?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Can I mark that for identification?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I am going to mark this, "Dallas, Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5012." Now, let me see if I understand you correctly- This was a collect call placed from Canada to the police department?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - By a man by the name of Simpson, Ralph Simpson?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you actually talk with Simpson?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - How long did the telephone call last?
Mr. DEAN - Four minutes and three seconds, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Is this the name of the operator that put the call through, Bernice Williamson?
Mr. DEAN - She was the Victoria operator.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did you get the name of the city operator?
Mr. DEAN - The city operator was Patsy. I don't know her last name. Patsy. She is the night operator at city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Would you indicate that Patsy handled that? Did Patsy listen in on the call?
Mr. DEAN - Yes [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - And have you talked with her about this since?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; she called back and gave me the time and charges on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And is there a record of that in the police department?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Can you get that for us?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I would appreciate that.
Mr. DEAN - Now, when she called me back to give me the time and charges she said that the operator had further checked this number 384-3780, and that number was--the call was made from the residence of the initials R. H. W., last name [spelling] S-m-e-l-e [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Who had checked that, now?
Mr. DEAN - The police department
Mr. GRIFFIN - Patsy?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; this night supervisor, Bernice Williamson in Canada, had contacted the police department there and asked them could they cross that number, or furnish her the address or name.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Did Bernice Williamson tell you this after you finished the telephone call?
Mr. DEAN - She told Patsy, the city hall operator this, and this is-
Mr. GRIFFIN - Patsy reconveyed that to you?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And you learned this from Patsy after the conversation with Simpson?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; this R. H. W. Smele has an address of 1141 Caldonia in Victoria.
Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Have you reported this to anybody else?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - I appreciate your bringing it to us then, very much. Would you sign that exhibit, Sergeant?
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - We will certainly look into that right away. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record. )

Mr. GRIFFIN - All right. Sergeant, we have been off the record here awhile, and you indicated that the man said something about having been here on vacation and some other thing. Will you tell us what else?
Mr. DEAN - He said he had been here on vacation and that when he learned of the President's coming, he had stationed himself on the southwestern part of the plaza, toward the railroad tracks, and that he had a wide scope he referred to it as a full wide scope camera, and that he believed that he had gotten the assassination. He was taking pictures at the time of the assassination, and he believed that he had the building in the background, because it's in direct trajectory of the line of fire. My impression of him was that since he said that he had talked it over with his attorney and didn't know what to do with these things, that he seemed to be scared as to whether to keep them or throw them away or what. When he told me that he would send them to me, that he said, "You can have them. I haven't developed them, and you don't have to send me any copies of them back."
Mr. GRIFFIN - Will you notify .us as soon as they receive those films?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN - And turn them over to us?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir. You want all the records from the city hall operator?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Telephone call; yes.
Mr. DEAN - This has been signed and dated [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay. Now, I don't know if you have had a chance to read this or not, but this is what I have marked as Exhibit 5011, which is an interview with you by Special Agent Paul Scott of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on December 9, 1963. Would you look that over and then
Mr. DEAN - Sign it?
Mr. GRIFFIN - Sign it and make any changes or additions that you want to make in it.
Mr. DEAN - [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN - Then let me state for the record that I appreciate very much the assistance that Sergeant Dean has given us here this evening, and I hope, and I am sure that if anything further comes to light which he thinks would be of value to the Commission, that he will come forward with it voluntarily, as you have here today?
Mr. DEAN - Burt, this--of course, I was cleared of all of this, as far as this newspaper article
Mr. GRIFFIN - Yes.
Mr. DEAN - I was just wondering if you had the FBI report on it?
Mr. GRIFFIN - We do. And I just wanted to make sure that as far as any statements are concerned, that you have made, or report, that you had a chance to look at them, and to my knowledge, I think I have shown you every one that we have on it.
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN - Okay. That's all.

Testimony Of Patrick Trevore Dean Resumed

The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 4:45 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. P. T. Dean was accompanied by his lawyer, Mr. Ted MacMasters.

Mr. HUBERT - Note that I am present. Note that Sgt. P. T. Dean is present and Mr. Ted MacMasters assistant city attorney of Dallas, and appearing as attorney for Mister--Sergeant Dean. Now, Sergeant Dean, your deposition was begun on---
Mr. DEAN - I believe it was a Tuesday.
Mr. MacMASTERS - March 24.
Mr. HUBERT - Mr. Butt Griffin as the member of the Commission's advisory staff conducting the examination. At that time you took an oath, I believe?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - Are you willing to consider that this is simply a continuation of that deposition?
Mr. DEAN - Yes; I am.
Mr. HUBERT - And that you are under the same oath that you were before?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - I wish to advise you that I have been authorized by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel for the Commission's staff to take your deposition under oath also. In other words, both Mr. Griffin and I have been so authorized, and I think he advised you of the general conditions and the right of notice and waiver and so forth?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - So that as far as I am concerned, I will just ask you if you have anything to add to your deposition or anything to say at all in any way?
Mr. DEAN - I told Mr. Griffin on that date that I would bring him additional information that he wanted. One was a record of the telephone call received on the 24th. Now, that would make your interview on the 25th, actually, I believe. Now, no, no; that's right. The morning, early morning hours of the 24th is when I received this call from Victoria, Canada.
That is a record of it from the city hall operator. That was pertaining to the film from the fellow in Alaska--or--correction, in Canada that he said he would----
Mr. MacMASTERS - Do you want to identify this?
Mr. HUBERT - You have handed me two documents and I judge that one of them is a photostatic copy of a front of a document, and the other is a photostatic copy of the rear of that document?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - Well; I am going to mark them for identification as follows: "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit--" We'll use number--5136, continuation of deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean." And I am signing my name for the purposes of identification and I am signing the second document which you state is a photostatic copy of the back of the document now identified as Exhibit 5136, as follows: "Dallas, Tex. April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5136-A, continuation of Deposition of P. T. Dean." Signing my name on the back of this, and for the purposes of identification and to show that we are both talking about the same document, would you mind putting your name below mine?
Mr. DEAN - All right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - Now, will you identify what these two documents were? Perhaps we'd better do it again, in the light of their identification numbers, so, let me ask you what are the documents that have now been marked for identification as 5136 and 5136-A?
Mr. DEAN - A record of the city hall's operator receiving a call from Victoria, Canada, on that date of March 24, about 4 o'clock in the morning and at that time I talked to--I believe it is Jack Simpson, or it is Ralph Simpson, and he stated that he had a reel of movie film that he had taken of the assassination and the trajectory of the line of fire which was on the far side of the plaza, which would be on the south side of Commerce Street. Mr. Simpson told me on the phone that he believed he had gotten not only the assassination, but also the building from where the bullet was fired. But I advised him--he wanted to know what to do with this film, and I advised him to send it to the Warren Commission in Washington, and he said that he had talked to his attorney and the attorney, Batter [phonetic] in Victoria, I didn't get the first name, his attorney had advised him to contact someone in Dallas and to send them to whatever place they said other than to the Warren Commission. He then asked me could he send them to me and I told him that he could. I checked with my office then just before coming over here today and the film hadn't come in.
Mr. HUBERT - Did he say he was going to send them by mail?
Mr. DEAN - Yes; he said he would airmail them the next day.
Mr. HUBERT - Did he indicate why he had called you, or just that you were on duty?
Mr. DEAN - Just on the advice of his attorney.
Mr. HUBERT - But, I mean, your particular name?
Mr. DEAN - No; he didn't ask for me particularly. However, he said that he recognized my name from reading of my testimony in the papers.
Mr. HUBERT - In other words, he made the call, he was calling specifically to you. You happened to be on duty, and therefore, the call came to you?
Mr. DEAN - That's right, and that is the record of the call received. That is what Mr. Griffin wanted.
Mr. HUBERT - And the other part that you told us about was the substance of a phone call?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - Right. Okay. Now, if you are going to talk about another document let's get it identified first and get numbers on it. Now, Mr. Dean, you are handing me a document consisting of three pages being apparently a photo-static copy of a letter dated April 8, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police. Last page shows "P. Treavor Dean----
Mr. MacMASTERS - I believe that is December 8. You said April.
Mr. HUBERT - Oh, 110, no. December S. Couldn't be April 8, we aren't there yet. "P. Treavor Dean, Sergeant Police Control Division," and in order that it may be identified and that the record may show what we're talking about, I am marking this first page in the right-hand margin, "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5137, Continuation of Deposition of P. T. Dean," signing my name below that, and the inscription on the second page, placing my initial in the right-hand lower corner and on the third page I am doing the same, and also ask you to sign the pages and initial them as I have done.
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. HUBERT - All right, sir. Now, do you have any comments to make with reference to this Document 5137, which you have handed me?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I believe it is self-explanatory.
Mr. HUBERT - Is this one of the documents that
Mr. DEAN - Mr. Griffin asked me would I bring.
Mr. HUBERT - All right, sir. Thank you.
Mr. DEAN - Mr. Griffin also asked me to bring a copy, if I had one, of my original notes that I had taken in the basement that day of my assignments and I have those.
Mr. HUBERT - Now, what day are you speaking of? The 24th?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; November 24.
Mr. HUBERT - November 24.
Mr. DEAN - They are not all--all my assignments are not here. However, the majority of them are.
Mr. HUBERT - When you say your assignments, you mean the people you assigned, or the job you were assigned
Mr. DEAN - The people that I assigned to various locations in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT - I see. Now, do you propose to let me then have that or a photo-static copy of it, or do you propose simply to dictate the information into the record?
Mr. DEAN - Well how about me just dictating it and I will keep ,this?
Mr. HUBERT - All right. Now, if Mr. Griffin's purpose was to find out whether they existed, then perhaps I ought to look at them so I can state I have seen these things myself.
Mr. DEAN - All right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - Therefore, let the record show that as Mr. Dean reads the information he is going to read, I am following him, and if he reads them correctly, I will say nothing. If he reads them incorrectly, or in a way that I do not understand, I will call it to his attention so that we may get it clear. All right?
Mr. DEAN - My first assignments were made just prior to our searching the basement. They were Officer Vaughn. R. E. Vaughn I assigned to the Main Street ramp, which is the north ramp entering the basement. Officer Patterson, B. G. Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp, which is the exit onto Commerce Street. These men were to be were assigned to the top of these ramps. Officer Brock was assigned to the elevator in the basement. Officer Nelson was assigned in the hall at the jail doors. Well, in---at the Jail window.

Mr. HUBERT - What is that?
Mr. DEAN - This is "Commerce ramp". All right, now, Officer Jez, I assigned him with Patterson at the Commerce Street ramp.
Mr. HUBERT - Now, of course, these notes are not exactly like that. You have added a few words, but let the record show that there is--displayed to me a paper which has, in substance, all that Mr. Dean has testified to.

Mr. MacMASTERS - You are interpolating your notes, aren't you?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir; and adding initials and--yes, sir. These two other men here, I don't know which one for sure, but they are Reserve Officers Fred A. Briederdorf, it looks like [spelling] B-r-i-e-d-e-r--or, B-e-r-d-r-f, and also another man by the name of Hunt, initials of which I don't know, or the first name. They were assigned to the basement, and I think that one of these two men I assigned to the entrance into the basement, or the machinery room.
Mr. HUBERT - There is a word here.
Mr. DEAN - Reserve.
Mr. HUBERT - Oh, that is reserve
Mr. DEAN - This is the page where I started to make some traffic assignments and they changed it, so, I--now, these are the traffic assignments just prior to the movement of Oswald. At Commerce and Pearl I assigned Officer Erwin, initials I don't know. At Commerce and Central, Officer Burton. At Central and Main, Officer Wages. At Central and Elm, Officer Gregory. At Pearl and Elm, Officer Tolbert. At Harwood and Elm, Officer Fox. At St. Paul and Elm, Officer Wise. At Elm and Ervay, shows here Brock. Brock. At Stone and Elm, Officer Raz. Akard and Elm, Officer Hibbs. At Field and Elm, Officer Anderson, and at Lamar and Elm, Officer Ferris. Now, these were just tentative assignments. I think in one of my reports that is already in evidence is the permanent assignments, but these are the originals that I made that afternoon which were tentative.
Now, this is just a note that I had written down from a Bob Stewart. He worked for WRR, and he was giving me some information that he had received. I don't remember from where he had received it, but he stated to me, and I had written it down here, a Serge Fliger, he is with Mutual News in Vienna, Austria, and that in essence now, I can interpret these notes for you, if you would rather.
Mr. HUBERT - Why don't you just read them and then interpret them.
Mr. DEAN - That source of Serge's information from behind the Iron Curtain that a man told him, and he it was a man that he stated that he trusted completely, that there was a group of dissident Russian soldiers, that this whole thing was an international plot, and that the Communists would kill off Oswald as quick as possible.
Mr. HUBERT - Now, with reference to those last few notes about Fliger, what you have read is not exactly what is in the book itself, but it is rather your--
Mr. DEAN - More of an interpretation of my notes, because I had written it rather hurriedly.
Mr. HUBERT - But, let the record show that as I read the notes the interpretation of them seems consistent with what I read.
Mr. DEAN - I believe that is all that is in here, Mr. Hubert. I believe that's all.
Mr. HUBERT - Now, may I ask this; were all those notes that you have just shown to me and read into the record with interpolations written in your own hand?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - Were they written at the time that you made the various assignments and so forth?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - And that includes also that information about that Serge Fliger from Austria?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - All right.
Mr. DEAN - And also, Mr. Griffin wanted me to find, if I could obtain a copy of the regarding a tape recording. It was an interview with radio station KLIF, and this interview took place about 2:30 on November 24.
Mr. HUBERT - 2:30 p.m.?
Mr. DEAN - That afternoon. Yes, sir; I do have a copy of that and I have listened to it and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - Are you proposing to give me the tape itself, or a transcription of it?
Mr. DEAN - Well, that is a transcript, I assume. I just asked KLIF would they make me a copy of it and this is, a transcript.
Mr. HUBERT - Do you propose to let me have the film, or this little record, or seems to be tape on a regular roll. Do you want it back?
Mr. DEAN - Could I have it back when the Commission gets through with it?
Mr. HUBERT - Yes, sir; but I don't know when that will be, you know.
Mr. DEAN - Well, whenever it might be.
Mr. HUBERT - I am trying to see how we are going to mark this.
Mr. MacMASTERS - Could it be placed in a sealed envelope and initialed across it and seal it and so forth?
Mr. HUBERT - I have placed my initials, LDH, on one end of the tape, and I have done that also, on the other end of the tape and giving the exhibit number of--by marking it "EX, 5138," with ball point pen on both ends of the tape, and then I'm also marking the small box, "5138" on one side, and "5138" on the other side, with my initials on both sides.
Mr. DEAN - Do you want me to initial it?
Mr. HUBERT - Oh, I don't know that that is necessary if you have heard that recording.
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - And it is a true recording of an interview of you, as I understand it, that you had with some reporter of the
Mr. DEAN - At KLIF.
Mr. HUBERT - Do you remember his name?
Mr. DEAN - Glenn Duncan. It is on the tape also.
Mr. HUBERT - All right, sir. You think it is a correct recording of a conversation?
Mr. DEAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - All right, anything else?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir; I, well, when these film, if they do come in, this fellow does send them to me, I will make them available to you.
Mr. HUBERT - You can do so through Mr. Barefoot Sanders. Contact us immediately.
Mr. DEAN - All right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - I will accept this and place these various exhibits you have given me today in with the other exhibits in the folder that we are putting all these exhibits in.
Mr. DEAN - All right.
Mr. HUBERT - Any other matters?
Mr. DEAN - No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT - That is all. Thank you very much. Mr. MacMasters, thank you very much.