Testimony Of George S. De Mohrenschildt

The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 10 a.m. on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue N.E., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition you are about to give?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, this is Mr. George De Mohrenschildt. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt have received letters from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, have you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We received one.
Mr. JENNER. One joint letter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. One joint letter.
Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed copies of the Senate Joint Resolution 137, which was the legislation authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130, President Lyndon Johnson--which brought the Commission actually into existence and appointed the Commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and obligations. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony before the Commission, and by deposition.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Are you a representative of the Commission?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A lawyer for the Commission?
Mr. JENNER. I will state it in a moment.
I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to the subject matter with which the Commission is charged.
In general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with Mr. Rankin's letter, the Commission is charged with the investigation and the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, the events that followed that assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the Commission relevant to its obligations.
In pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for some months, we have examined before the Commission and by way of deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of their lives, came into contact either with Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald, or others who had some relation with them. And in the course of our investigation, we have learned that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt befriended the Oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with them.
As you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people who do not know what the facts are--some of them know bits of the facts--which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that are largely personal. We are not doing so merely because we are curious.
I will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. It may not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of course, than any one witness would know.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, this affair actually is hurting me quite a lot, particularly right now in Haiti, because President Duvalier--I have a contract with the Government.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I want to inquire on that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They got wind I am called by the Warren committee. Nobody knows how it happened. And now he associates me, being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international assassins, and I am about to be expelled from the country. My contract may be broken.
So I discussed that with our Ambassador there, Mr. Timmons, and he said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best.
Supposedly, President Duvalier received a letter from Washington. Now, this is unofficial---one of the ministers informed me of that--in which this letter states that I was a very close friend of Oswald's, that I am a Polish Communist and a member of an international band.
Mr. JENNER. I would say that you are misinformed on that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he did receive some kind of a letter.
Mr. JENNER. But nothing that would contain any such statements.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know from whom. Some kind of a letter he received from someone.
Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What is that?
Mr. JENNER. It may have been a crank letter, but nothing official.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I am sure it is nothing official. I am sure it could not have been anything official.
I hope Mr. Timmons will investigate it. Because, naturally, the Minister of Finance of Haiti tells me that it is an official letter and seems to indicate that it comes from the FBI. But I just doubt it, personally. Probably a crank letter. I do not have an extraordinary admiration for the FBI. But, frankly, I don't think they would do anything like that, you know.
Mr. JENNER. They don't go around making official-
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. So I hope that this unpleasantness will be somehow repaired by Mr. Timmons. And I think that just a communication from him to the foreign office there might help. I am not persona non grata at the Embassy. He doesn't have to swear I am this or that, or that I am a good friend of his. But just that I am not persona non grata would be sufficient, I think. Because this job I have there in Haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is important for me. It involves a considerable amount of money, $285,000, and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with it--and preparation of this job started already in 1947, when I first came to Haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there. It is a long-term approach that I have started, because I like the country, and I think it has excellent oil possibilities, and I finally got that contract about in March last year.

So if the committee could do something in that respect--I am going also to see a gentleman in the State Department who Mr. Timmons suggested me to see and explain the situation to him. It would be very unpleasant, just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we certainly don't want that to happen. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Please think about what can be done in this respect, because it is really very important to me.
Mr. JENNER. Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And excuse me. I am also employing American geologists there, and I am responsible for them and their families. I have several Haitian engineers and geologists working there. So it is not a fly-by-night project, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't regard it as such, and I know something about it. I think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning. You were born in 1911?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Some of the reports say April 17th and some say April 4th, or something of that nature. It is probably a difference in the calendar.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it exactly. It is a difference in calendar.
Mr. JENNER. It is April 17, 1911, by what calendar?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By our calendar here.
Mr. JENNER. And what date by----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. April 4th.
Mr. JENNER. And by what calendar is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Gregorian Calendar.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you are now 53 years old?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you born?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A town called Mozyr.
Mr. JENNER. What country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Russia; Czarist Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Czarist, did you say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, some of the reports indicate that this was Poland rather than Russia. Would you explain this?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't remember the town, because I never lived there to my memory. But it is not too far from the Polish border.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your father was Sergis Alexander Von Mohrenschildt, is that correct? And your mother was Alexandra Zopalsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What nationality was your mother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My mother was Russian, of Polish and Hungarian descent.
Mr. JENNER. And the nationality of your father?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was also of Russian, Swedish, German descent.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me a little bit about your father? And may I say this. There appear in the reports that he was--or maybe your grandfather, was Swedish, or someone in your line was Swedish, and received some commission or grant from the Queen of Sweden at one time, or maybe your family.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, will you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the family is of Swedish origin. The name is spelled M-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I saw last night in looking over these materials the spelling S-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they probably changed it to S-c-h-i- l-d-t. And it can also be written in Russian, at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what did your father do? What was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a landowner. He was a director of the Nobel interests for a while. He was a marshal of nobility of the Minsk Province.
Mr. JENNER. He was what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Marshal of nobility. He was elected representative of the landowners to the Government.
Mr. JENNER. Of what country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Czarist Russia. He was born in Russia, and spent all his life in Russia, spoke German at home sometimes, sometimes Russian. That was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. You, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe five languages. May I see if I can recall them. English?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; if you consider it a command.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. German?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. German, not too well.
Mr. JENNER. Spanish?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Spanish.
Mr. JENNER. French?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I suppose a smattering of a number of other languages.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have traveled widely?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Especially in Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Now you can add Creole to it.
Mr. JENNER. From your experience in Haiti?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. And Yugoslav.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you spent almost a year in Yugoslavia.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pick up any Danish when you were there, or do they speak French there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They speak German and French.
Mr. JENNER. Your father is deceased?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his death?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was----
Mr. JENNER. I think it might be well, Mr. De Mohrenschildt--I am trying to make this informal. I want you to relax.
May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned, I will tend to inquire into these things.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am very glad that you do, because you know what I mean--it is probably being in a controversial business like I am, international business----
Mr. JENNER. Also, I gather that you are a pretty lively character.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. I hope so. All sorts of speculation have arisen from time to time. And I don't mind, frankly, because when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of anything. I am very outspoken.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that you. are, from witnesses I have interviewed, and from these mountains of reports.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I can imagine. By the way, those reports--again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my business. I hope they are conducted somehow delicately.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I was asking you to tell me about your father.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be the circumstances of death.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an important official of the Czarist government. But he was a liberal--he had very liberal ideas. He, for instance, was---
Mr. JENNER. Now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean nothing. You tell us what you mean by that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Liberal means disliked anti-Semitism, the persecution of Jews.
Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. Disliked the oppression, some elements of oppression of the Czarist government.
Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Opposed to that. And preached constitutional government. During the war he was a member--being an official--member of the group which mobilized the Army, and all that.
Mr. JENNER. He mobilized the Czarist army?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about World War I?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. World War I. It is such a long time ago.
Mr. JENNER. I have to get these things on record, so that somebody who is reading this, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now--I should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as you give it, with all my questions put to you just as I put them. And it will be printed as part of the report.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I can imagine what a volume it will be for the future Ph. D.'s to study. This is vague in my memory. I am saying what I vaguely remember, because, at that time, I was 5 years old. But I vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the Czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. He was an independent character, too. Finally he resigned his marshal of nobility position, and became a director of Nobel interests, of which his older brother was a president or chairman of the board--I don't know, I don't remember any more, in Baku, Russia. So we spent a little time there in the oil fields. And then, of course, the revolution came.
Mr. JENNER. And that came when?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Beg pardon?
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1918, I guess. Then the revolution came. We were returned to Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. In 1918 where were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1918 probably in St. Petersburg, or Moscow, one or the other--in both towns at some times. Because the headquarters of that Nobel enterprises were in Petersburg or Moscow. But I am not so sure about that. Anyway, we lived there for awhile.
Mr. JENNER. You do have a personal recollection of having lived in St. Petersburg and Moscow?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, very vague. I never expected you to ask me such questions. I really have to delve into my memory. It is not very difficult, because, you know, I like to write things. So I did write a story of my childhood, and it is called "Child of the Revolution," a memory of the child of the revolution. It was poorly written. I showed it to one of the editors, Scribners, I remember, and they wanted me to change it, and I abandoned the whole thing. Well, so I do have a little bit more recollection than I am supposed to have just by living so many years, because I did write it down.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You wrote it when you came over to this country.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you refreshed your recollection at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Discussions with your brother, I suppose?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned Minsk.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the province where my father was governor-not governor, but marshal of nobility of.
Mr. JENNER. What province is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Province of Minsk. Surprisingly, that is where Lee Oswald lived. This is one of the reasons I was curious about his experiences, because I remember it very well. I remember that town very well.
Mr. JENNER. What age were you when you left Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. So from Leningrad, during the occupation by the Germans of Minsk, you see, we escaped from the Communists in Leningrad, and moved to Minsk back again, because it was German occupied.
Mr. JENNER. This was in World War I?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in World War I. That was in 1918 or 1919. I don't remember exactly what year it was. That area was still occupied by the Germans. Anyway, there was famine in Moscow, or Leningrad, I don't remember which one--there was famine there. So we escaped.

Mr. JENNER. Did your whole family escape to Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember what my brother was doing at the time. I think--I think just my father, mother, and myself. I think my brother was in the Naval Academy at the time.
Mr. JENNER. I want to ask you about your brother in due course. He is about 12 years older than you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--11.
Mr. JENNER. A man of some scholarly attainment, by the way.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He certainly is. He loves books.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly, more than communism, and moved back to Minsk--whether we had a house, or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make it short.
Mr. JENNER. Please that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But I want times. About when was your father put in jail?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time in 1920, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And you were still with your family then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At this time you were 9 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your father was seized?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. By whom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By the Communists, by the Communist regime.
Mr. JENNER. Why was he seized?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. For being outspoken, I guess. I remember--the first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first time. Then the Polish Army arrived--the Poles and the Russians were fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists, because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to escape from Soviet Russia.
The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated and the Russians arrived again. And here was the question to decide whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression that they have changed.
Mr. JENNER. That the Russians had changed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he heard from somebody that they have become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea--what was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one, also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture I don't remember what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain number of months-- although there was a famine there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are still in Minsk?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in Minsk; yes--in probably 1920. And then one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing museums in churches. And my father objected to that.
Mr. JENNER. Your father was a religious man, was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not religious. But he objected by principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally--I remember this more distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia. And that I will never forget about my father--an interesting thing.
Mr. JENNER. He was banished to Siberia by the Russians?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution. This was a revolutionary period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. This is 1921 by now.
Mr. JENNER. You are now 10 years old?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I remained on the street making my own living somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far as I remember the name of it.
And why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was, "Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence just because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very sick in jail. And these friends--the friends whom he had helped previously----
Mr. JENNER. You mean true friends?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. In this particular case I don't remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick, and finally--they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved, and he was able to be sent to Siberia.
And they did. that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people helped him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border, in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland.
Mr. JENNER. You crossed the border into Poland, and he settled where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In a town called Wilno.
Mr. JENNER. That was yourself, your mother, and your father?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My father. But my mother almost immediately died from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had this typhoid fever.
Mr. JENNER. But she succumbed to it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And this was what year?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1922.
Mr. JENNER. You are now 11 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At this point I might ask you--the name was Von Mohrenschildt at this particular time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your name is now De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think your brother still uses the Von, does he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite some time, and died here----
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give his full name.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in Washington?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married McAdoo's daughter.
Mr. JENNER. William Gibbs McAdoo's daughter. She is now Mrs. Post.
Is she still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she is still alive.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nona.
Mr. JENNER. Your uncle is deceased?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is deceased; yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were eventually divorced, were they not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; no--he died. They were never divorced. She was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. But he died--I guess in 1925 or 1924.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the Baltic nobility.
Mr. JENNER. Through what source?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And as near as I can tell, your brother never has?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My brother--I don't think so; no.
Mr. JENNER. At least I don't find it in any of the papers.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you perhaps were--had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that of record.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you in Wilno, Poland. You are 11 years old.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some papers which say that we are barons, in my files. But, frankly, I don't--I think it is sort of ridiculous to use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea.
Mr. JENNER. Which one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last one, Sharples.
Mr. JENNER. Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and your brother Dimitri?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And no others--just two children?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you stayed in Wilno, Poland, how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium, which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that is where our home was.
Mr. JENNER. What did your father do in Wilno?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In Wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land.
Mr. JENNER. In Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In Russia--which became Poland--in Czarist Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the border.
Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was--well, maybe 5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres.
Mr. JENNER. I would say that is fairly large.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was able to regain it. He did not take it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother have an interest in that estate?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, it was mother's and father's estate, probably jointly.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call the gymnasium, in 1929.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So you are now 18 years of age?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father during this period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very close relationship I had with my father.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you then leave Poland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Then I tried to---I did not like the country very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the Polish Army.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to go into that. Go right ahead.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it because I volunteered--I was 18 years old. I graduated from there.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. May I ask you this: Would it have been possible for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the same position or division in the Polish Army?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. There were some exceptions. Most of the people there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated, not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training, and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform, you have to have your own horse.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you get the funds to finance it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my father had this estate, sales of land from that estate, and he also was--now, this I forgot to mention about my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was always--always liked to teach.
Mr. JENNER. You are taking us back to Russia for a moment?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium.
Mr. JENNER. That is the high school?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. High school, in Wilno. You know--where the immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or 1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different school.
Mr. JENNER. You mean you went to a school different from the one in which he was teaching?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in order not to be under my father's---not supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland, by the way-- did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated.
Mr. JENNER. Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you have a command?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And, therefore, it was very important, because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how long were you in the military academy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A year and a half.
Mr. JENNER. And this would take us, then, to the middle of 1931.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1931; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had reached what, if any, rank in the military service?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military academy.
Mr. JENNER. Just before as in this country you are about to be commissioned a second lieutenant?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Except that you are not completely a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. Now, you didn't pursue that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and pursue that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there are some indications that you did return.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you did in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to school, then to Belgium--I was free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur de Commerce a Anvers.
Mr. JENNER. The translation of that is the institute of higher commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you, from time to time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with your summer maneuvers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the requirement in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Just to come there when they called you, and go with the Army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that twice. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. And this was still in the cavalry?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Still in the cavalry.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ultimately commissioned?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; always stayed a sergeant.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the institute of----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By the way, which was a commission--that is very hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what it is. And since I did not pursue the military career. I remained a candidate officer.

Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I was not disqualified for any reason. On the contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so.
Mr. JENNER. Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get it on the record here your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you, he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that was the Russian Czarist Navy, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that, please.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; go right ahead.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial Navy, became a midshipman.
Mr. JENNER. Give me some dates.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol, which is the headquarters there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was born March 29, 1902, in St. Petersburg, Russia.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I thought he was born in 1900.
Mr. JENNER. Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at Dartmouth and Yale.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from Annapolis here.
Mr. JENNER. And did he actually serve in the Czarist Navy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. All the time you are in that school you are in the navy, all the time even when you are 12 years old, you are a member of the navy. It is not like here.
Mr. JENNER. Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period of fighting.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in a town called Smolensk.
Here we were coming back to our--we were already in Minsk at the time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them.
My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices.
Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist prisoners, and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my father's old friends.
And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic bishop in Poland.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother join you in Wilno, Poland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He immediately--it looks vague. I think he joined us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. My information is that he emigrated to the United States on the 20th of August 1920.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. A little bit ahead of us.
Mr. JENNER. Does that square with your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. You see, there was an intermediate year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I had digressed a moment because it was appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But we have you now in Belgium, attending the university.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had your brother had a higher education while he was still in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly better than high school here.
Mr. JENNER. Junior college?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Junior college; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued your studies, did you, in Belgium?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher commercial studies in Antwerp?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I received what you called--master's degree, probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there. You get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation.

Mr. JENNER. And you attended this institute for 4 years, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. For 5 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you received----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; all the degrees you can get there.
Mr. JENNER. This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher learning in Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Something like the Harvard Business School?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; founded by Napoleon.
Mr. JENNER. And you received a----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a mixture of some engineering and commercial--not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration. It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a specialization in maritime transportation.
Mr. JENNER. There is some indication that your degree is one of master of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you continued on--after you received that master's degree, you continued on for another year, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. No; you entered----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I entered the University of Liege.
Mr. JENNER. And how long did you study there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Two years.
Mr. JENNER. And you ultimately received a degree, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was that degree?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Doctor of science in international commerce.
Mr. JENNER. Did you write a doctorate thesis?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On what subject was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was the subject of the economic influence of the United States on Latin America.
Mr. JENNER. Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in Latin America?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a very useful dissertation it was.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you--let's see, this is about 5 years--you are about----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1938.
Mr. JENNER. We are up in 1938.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now,----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, my brother came to visit me from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married.
Mr. JENNER. To Miss McAdoo?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker.
Mr. JENNER. That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with Edward Hooker, were you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. She is still living, is she not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She still is living; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is she in this country or in Paris or Italy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She is in New York now. I have her address some place. She lives between New York and Paris.
Mr. JENNER. Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during this period?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you were attending the university?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were pursuing your studies at two universities?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that company?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The name was Sigurd.
Mr. JENNER. And that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski clothes, and that sort of thing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you attempt to sell those throughout Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the process of doing so, did you then travel through Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the funds to finance that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very little funds--maybe a $1,000, $2,000, from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an excellent saleswoman.
Mr. JENNER. Had you received any funds from your mother's participation in the estate you had?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think that was the money that helped me to start--when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand dollars--although I did not take all the money away from my father, but at least part of it. Or maybe more than that--maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I really don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. There is some indication in the papers that it was as much as $10,000.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a very successful operation, this business, Sigurd.
Mr. JENNER. Did you subsequently dissolve it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend, decided to come to the States.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother had been over to see you in the meantime?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us, between my ex-girl friend and myself.
Mr. JENNER. And you came to this country in 1938?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. May of 1938.
Mr. JENNER. May of 1938, I think it was. What did you do to sustain yourself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I brought some money with me. I brought some money with me something like $10,000, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you immediately do in connection with that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What did I do immediately?
Mr. JENNER. I mean did you enter into----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully, if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any interest in that company?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some materials for Shumaker and Company.
Mr. JENNER. Where were you residing then, with your brother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; part of the time. Then I had my own room.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother was then living on Park Avenue, was he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. 750?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you--how long did you stay with him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island.
Mr. JENNER. And at Belport, you made what acquaintances?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lots of people, but especially Mrs. Bouvier.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mrs. Bouvier?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends. We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father.
Mr. JENNER. Well, bring yourself along.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That friendship more or less remained, because we still see each other, occasionally--Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally correspond.
Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventally expropriated and confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company. I arrived in Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Before we get there because that skips some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. How did you know that?
Mr. JENNER. You were unsuccessful in that, were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very unsuccessful.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single policy.
Mr. JENNER. Over what period of a time did you pursue that activity?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I even didn't pass my broker's examination. I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that examination. So that was the end of my insurance business.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which was-- this is about 1941.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But before that I was in Texas and worked for Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. Before 1941 you had gone to Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; in 1939.
Mr. JENNER. You went to Texas in 1939?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I was interested in the oil industry and wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry.
Mr. JENNER. Whom did you contact? How did you get there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went by bus--to Texas by bus. But what actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark--Margaret Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in Louisiana. That is about the year 1939.
I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember--with my sister-in-law's aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans, but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through mutual acquaintances.
Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig.
Mr. JENNER. You worked on a rig. This is physical work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning machinery.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, starting from the ground floor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. If there is such a thing in the oil business.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.
Mr. JENNER. Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way--a very well paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at the time.
Mr. JENNER. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for the record.
You are 6'1", are you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And now you weigh, I would say, about 195?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Back in those days you weighed around 180.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You are athletically inclined?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have dark hair.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No gray hairs yet.
Mr. JENNER. And you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you are an outdoorsman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I have to tell you--I never expected you to ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I went to Arizona.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt; one of the things I am trying to do is get your personality into the record, because many people have described your personality.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very different, probably.
Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would be surprised.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that I have friends, I have enemies.
Mr. JENNER. Well, everybody has.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to get a job as--I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble Oil Co.-- probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is after my experience with Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as--what did you call it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called.
Mr. JENNER. And you pursued that how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think 3 or 4 months.
Mr. JENNER. We are still in 1939?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was badly cut up-- something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And, frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself. I do not remember. Maybe both-- resigned and mutual agreement. But I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean---drill wells, get a lease-- drill a well, find some money to drill that well.
Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so early in my experience in the United States--to go into that type of business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that."
Mr. JENNER. Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could do it without capital.
Mr. JENNER. All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's, Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself--I don't remember what it was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then-- yes, then comes the draft time in the U.S. Army.
Mr. JENNER. That is right; 1941.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are in New York City.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft, and they found I have high blood pressure.
Mr. JENNER. With the advent of the war in Europe, did you---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I forgot to tell you.
Mr. JENNER. Did you volunteer?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in 1939--since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas experience with the Humble Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. Your Louisiana experience?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was just--I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was there---I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe it was my duty to be in the Polish Army.
And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people--I never arrived in Poland.
I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably wouldn't be alive today.
Mr. JENNER. You have some----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say, I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it is not my intention.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You are calling on your own recollection.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call it, tenuous connection with some movie business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Facts, Inc.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is another venture I went into.
Mr. JENNER. This was 1941?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron Maydell.
Mr. JENNER. Now, he was a controversial man, was he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A very controversial person.
Mr. JENNER. In what sense?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the sense that some people considered him pro-Nazi.
Mr. JENNER. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a German spy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian--although he had been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him. And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary movies.
Mr. JENNER. Documentary?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--which is Facts--what was it called? Film Facts Incorporated.
Mr. JENNER. Film Facts I think is the name of it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And he had a very interesting movie there of the Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over the United States and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection, because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite a number of people here. I remember most of them---by Grace, who is president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This is already--Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly--by Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for the benefit of the Polish refugees.
Mr. JENNER. Resistance movement?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make some money; number two, to help the Polish cause.
So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it together. It was about 45 minutes long--a very interesting movie, very moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success. I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership.
The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their own purpose.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will Never Die." It was an assembly job.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your interest was a business interest?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we also cut it together. We put the music together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it all together.
Mr. JENNER. Was your grandfather born in this country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; great grandfather, or great, great grandfather.
Mr. JENNER. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania, later went to Russia, entered the oil business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I will be darned. I didn't know that.
Mr. JENNER. I am not saying it is so.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. We have in the family some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the Independence. Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that, being an older member of the family, had the right to be---what do you call it--a descendant---
Mr. JENNER. Of the American Revolution?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He told me either he became a member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that wine company--was that the Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr. JENNER. On a commission?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is one of my best friends.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What business was he in then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was then chief of export of Schumaker and Company.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become involved with him in that connection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in 1941.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we collected facts on people involved in pro-German activity, and----
Mr. JENNER. This was anti-German activity?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that it was French intelligence.
Mr. JENNER. And did that work take you around the country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for the French interests.
Mr. JENNER. Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the United States were not at war yet at the time.
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And so the French intelligence devised a system whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil by out-bidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose names now I have forgotten.
Mr. JENNER. When was that work completed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think it is about--it was not completed. We just somehow petered out.
Mr. JENNER. Were you compensated?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No---just my expenses, traveling expenses, and daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary.
Mr. JENNER. Had you----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think this whole thing, when the United States got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they could not buy oil here anyhow.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. So that is how it ended.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--I think $5,000---I thought it was $10,000, frankly.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. By whom?
Mr. JENNER. Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1945?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They interviewed me a couple of times.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you have been interviewed more than once.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs. Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your recollection was better in 1945 than it is now.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr. Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was in this country, was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me? Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The King of Bananas of Brazil--his name will come back to me. Dr.--I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York. Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well.
Dr. Palo Muchado, Decio de Paulo Muchado. An enormously wealthy Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls, the good life, and very good businessman at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. You liked American girls, too, didn't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not queer, you know. Although some people accuse me of that even--even of that. Not as much as some other people, you know-- because this girl really was the love of my life Lilia Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was a divorcee.
Mr. JENNER. She wasn't divorced as yet, was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was divorced already once. But she had a husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman.
Mr. JENNER. Guasco?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well, anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell in love--I just got a discharge from the military service in the United States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond comprehension.
Mr. JENNER. Well, on your way to Mexico----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Corpus Christi--really, if we didn't have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend following false trails.

Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know they are false when they are following them.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I don't know whose advice they followed.
But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet.
Mr. JENNER. You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and we went to the beach.
On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by some characters.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach enjoying the sunshine.
Mr. JENNER. Now---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What do they say we did?
Mr. JENNER. Did you make take some photographs when you were in Aransas Pass?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly; of each other.
Mr. JENNER. You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas Pass.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make any sketches?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I like to sketch. By the way, I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass?
Mr. JENNER. I can tell you that is what got you into trouble.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one to tell me about that.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have, which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an outing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass.
Mr. JENNER. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was then at war.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But nobody told me there was any military installations around Aransas Pass.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you were seen sketching the countryside.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that aroused suspicion.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. That is the whole thing.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with this lady friend of yours?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And on the way back then from Aransas Pass----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some characters stopped the car and came out of the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is my Polish passport. So--they never said anything about sketching. I thought they were from some comedy actors.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't they identify themselves?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they said they were from the FBI.
Mr. JENNER. They might have been from some other government service.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe some other government service. But I have the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed me all the way from New York--all the way from New York.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched your car?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Searched the car, found absolutely nothing, except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches.
Mr. JENNER. With that experience, did you proceed on into Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were very insulting to this Mexican lady, very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That I do not recall exactly.
Mr. JENNER. As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint officially.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she told me she will complain officially.
Mr. JENNER. She complained, but she never complained anything was stolen.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You reached Mexico City?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And--with this lady.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Mexico how long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is 5 months, 6 months--until they expelled me from Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection--that you made a statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except painting and going around with Lilia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I did something. I invested some money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that outfit, because it was going to---the stock was going to go up, which I did. I made some nice money out of that investment.
Mr. JENNER. You had funds when you went into Mexico, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had some letters of credit?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would that amount to around $6,000?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9 months with this lady?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on Avenue De the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name. Paseo de la reforma.
Mr. JENNER. Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some difficulty in Mexico, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Boy, did I get in difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Maxino Comacho?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. General in the Mexican Army.
Mr. JENNER. And as a result of--just give me that in capsule form.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he wanted to take my girl friend away from me. We were going to get married.
Mr. JENNER. You were serious about that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think by the time she got to Mexico---she already got a Mexican divorce. I am sure she did. She was already free.
Mr. JENNER. She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question about whether it was good in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right; something like that. Anyway, she was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and had me thrown out of the country.
Mr. JENNER. I am not interested in his accusation, but he made some accusation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He did, really?
Mr. JENNER. I am asking you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back to the States.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't leave immediately, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I went into hiding for a few days, because some Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of those Mexicans who tried to help me.
Mr. JENNER. Manuel Garza; was he one of them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your attorney?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a good friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They said, "That is the best way for you, to leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of Mexico."
Mr. JENNER. While in Mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You were in love with this lady?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other friends, and did some traveling around Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you get the money to do that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike. And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there at the time was a young MacArthur boy.
Mr. JENNER. General MacArthur's son?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright. He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips together. The son of John MacArthur.
Mr. JENNER. You eventually returned to America, to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You went back to New York?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. By train?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, you went by chair car?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a chair car. But, believe me, they are very often----
Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time when you returned that you started to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we are in what year--about 1942, 1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, about that.
Mr. JENNER. 1942, I think.
Now, upon your return to New York, what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I was working on that book. I sold that interest in the sugar company--that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about--and then I remember once I went to Palm Beach.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What else did I do then?
Mr. JENNER. When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became your first wife, Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me who was Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I fell in love with each other and got married.
Mr. JENNER. She was quite young, was she not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very young.
Mr. JENNER. About 17 or 18?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In New York.
Mr. JENNER. In New York City?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. New York City.
Mr. JENNER. And that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About a year later.
Mr. JENNER. You were married just a short time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Just a short time. A child was born.
Mr. JENNER. There was a child born of that marriage?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that child's name was Alexandra?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is she still alive?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce took well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never married her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. When you got back to the United States----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We pursued correspondence, and I intended to marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back to Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. The records indicate that you made some effort here in Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And that Lilia attempted to assist you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to come into this country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. She also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She had two sons?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One of them was in Racine, Wis.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Both of them were in military academy--young boys.
Mr. JENNER. And in any event, that eventually petered out?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you met Dorthy Pierson in Palm Beach, Fla.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the 16th of June 1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the date. The dates of my marriage are very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to take my word for it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is probably correct. You must have it some place.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your daughter's birthday--it was on Christmas Day, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. 1943?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed book?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I had an exhibition of my paintings.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did you do some painting?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did a lot of painting--a whole tremendous file of paintings in Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. And did you subsequently exhibit those paintings?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Newton Gallery, New York, 57th Street.
Mr. JENNER. And did those paintings receive comment from the critics?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The newspapers wrote about them, that they were original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still have some of those paintings?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some I have given away, but I still have some.
Mr. JENNER. They are water colors?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Water colors, washes; yes. But no military installation--the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican types--I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple of days with no roads, and finally one evening--- -
Mr. JENNER. This is in Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; during that time.
Mr. JENNER. During the 9 months you were there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we walked back a couple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We left the car right there.

Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If you see him in Chicago--I will write to him again; and I hope to see him.
Mr. JENNER. You came to Texas in 1944, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1944.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making a loan at the----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Russian Student Fund?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and study geology and petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. Had you made inquiry at the Colorado School of Mines?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice Institute, and University of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in that neighborhood?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. During these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, you see---bohemian and trying to make a buck, as you might call it.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to bring out your personality.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. But you see the main reason I actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did not have-- which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself, as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did. It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well. And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances, and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved. And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided to go----
Mr. JENNER. You were young and full of energy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that a man without the education in that particular field--I did not have the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you might still be.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I probably will be. But really that was--he was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice of all my friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who are very wealthy.
Mr. JENNER. All right. You came to Texas----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Came to Texas----
Mr. JENNER. 1944.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was following your divorce from Dorothy Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Got a loan.
Mr. JENNER. You entered----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Entered the University of Texas, and School of Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor--major in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think.
Mr. JENNER. You received your master's in 1945, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And in petroleum geology?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with minor in petroleum engineering.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your studies further?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in American schools.
Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you serve as an instructor----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In French.
Mr. JENNER. You had no tenure there? You were not a professor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; an instructor in French, to make some additional money.
Mr. JENNER. When did you complete your work at the University of Texas--all of your studies?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the fall of 1945.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you at the University of Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think about 2 years.
Mr. JENNER. Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the University of Texas, did you enter into business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I worked as a field engineer.
Mr. JENNER. In Venezuela?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But eventually fought with the vice president.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I got into some personal trouble with the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president, and a close friend, that I should resign and also----
Mr. JENNER. When did you leave that position?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946.
Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. You were going to add something.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you see.
It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated in Venezuela.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in Venezuela?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States.
Mr. JENNER. So you returned to the United States in 1946?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed a very short time, and went to Texas again.
Mr. JENNER. What town?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States. And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee.
Mr. JENNER. At Rangely, Colo.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the field engineer's name? He is now dead, is he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Joe Zorichak.
Mr. JENNER. There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two of you assisting the chairman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the other assistant's name. I was the only one in the office. Later on--we were part of the group of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones actually working for the committee. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. I will find it here in a moment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, this committee was a consulting organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky Mountains. It still is.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name James Gibson sound familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; Gibson--James Gibson; yes. But he was not in our oufit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the Standard Oil of California.
Mr. JENNER. Does the name J. M. Bunce sound familiar to you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who is he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was a representative of a pumping outfit from California who sold oil well pumps.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the various oil companies?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo. oil field, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering data for the entire field.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, yes; this and also to allocate production to various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was our main job, you know.
Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became very, very successful.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was what--1947?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3 1/2 years, something like that. 3 years, maybe.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Phyllis Washington?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that a little bit.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I went on a vacation to New York, met a very pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild. But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to Colorado--without being married.
Her father was with the State Department, Walter Washington.
But I didn't know him.
Mr. JENNER. She was an adopted child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Her name originally was Wasserman?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to Spain, where her father was appointed charged d' affaires at the time. She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness.
And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last boomtown in America, Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States. We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud. It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life.
Mr. JENNER. You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to Aspen, did you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends. But then I became chairman.
Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him.
Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time that you took residence in Aspen?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, no; about that time, I would say--I didn't take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen.
But I commuted between Rangely and Aspen.
Mr. JENNER. That is quite a commutation. It is 165 miles, isn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing for the oil field.
Mr. JENNER. But it takes a long time to get 165 miles.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee. They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee.
Mr. JENNER. You had some difficulties with them before they decided to break it up, didn't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember too much of a difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. Was there something about your spending too much time over at Aspen, and not being---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, they never told me that. But possibly.
Mr. JENNER. The severance of your relationship was mutual?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I think so. I don't think--you may call it I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George, we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the Engineering Committee." I was the only one left, you see. So I said fine, stop it.
Mr. JENNER. And this was about when?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are interested in my character--is that it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. At Rangely, Colo., it stopped being an operating oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting.
Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I don't think I ever had any complaint against me.
Mr. JENNER. You were interested a great deal initially when the field was being developed.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen, and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion, and your employers questioned it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example, attitude with respect to keeping expenses?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget, more or less, at the same level, maybe lower.

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eventually--she drank, also, an awful lot. Today she is an alcoholic--poor girl.
Mr. JENNER. You entered the oil consulting business in Denver?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. First of all, as just an ordinary consultant. I got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil company in Denver.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Jimmy Donahue. And he facilitated by giving his office, the secretary and so on. Because it is rather expensive to start on your own.
But very soon afterwards I started getting consulting jobs--doing evaluations on the wells and things like that. And one night--this will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business--one night I was driving through Oklahoma, tired as hell, and I said to myself, by God, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, I am just a flunky here for all these big operators--I should go in the oil business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing, which was interesting to me. And then I recalled that my exnephew, Eddie Hooker, in New York, asked me to go in business with him. He had visited me in Colorado and was very much interested in the work I had done. I gave him a telephone call from some place in Oklahoma.
I said, "Eddie, how about it?"
He was working for Merrill Lynch at the time.
And he said, "George, I am ready. I am tired of Merrill Lynch."
Mr. JENNER. Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. "I am tired of that Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane."
We formed a limited partnership together.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the partnership of Hooker and De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was when--1950?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so---1950.
Mr. JENNER. And did it last very long?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It lasted, I think, 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. About 2 years?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 2 or 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, We made money, we lost money, but it was a pleasant relationship. We are still very good friends.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do in connection with that partnership?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I did buying of the leases, doing the drilling, and helped him in New York, also, to raise money.
Mr. JENNER. He handled the financial end, or raising of money end?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you the field work?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Sometimes--we opened an office in New York, a small office. He was in New York most of the time. I was in Denver. Our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. But our second well was a producer. We made some production. But never anything big.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Eventually I returned to Texas from Denver, because I had always retained some good friends in Texas, and they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first venture suggested that, "George, you will do better in Texas, because Wyoming is too expensive"--a well costs $200,000 or $300,000 in Wyoming, you know--in Wyoming or Colorado.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you were in partnership with Mr. Hooker, your field work and discovery work was in Wyoming and Colorado, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We started by drilling our first well in Wyoming, operating from Denver. And we had--we were snowbound there, we paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. To make the story short, our first venture was quite a failure. One of the reasons we finally split partnership with Eddie Hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy. He comes from a very wealthy family. And he wanted the oil business to make millions.
My reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and eventually build up some production.
On our first venture in Wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a well--they would do it. Naturally, I told Ed we should do that instead of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. Well, he said if they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual story.
I was a little more conservative--I said better sell out and try to find something less risky.
He said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away--which was true--we had a huge block, of 12,000 acres, something like that.
Well, from then on, the next venture was in Texas, and we drilled quite a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too.
Mr. JENNER. You returned to Texas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What year?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Abilene, Tex., we had the headquarters--that was the center of the small size independent operators at the time.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of the hotel at which you stayed?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Wooten Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. And the partnership was still in existence?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Our partnership was broken up after I married Miss Sharples. It was, frankly, a personal thing.
Mr. JENNER. I think this is a good time to stop, because that is the next phase I want to get into. We can go to lunch.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)


Testimony Of George S. De Mohrenschildt Resumed

The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. On the record.
Before we start on the next phase of your life, I would like to go back a minute to your father.
You left there about 1931 or 1932?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I came back many times.
Mr. JENNER. You came back to see him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; almost every summer vacation.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father, with particular reference to World War II?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was living in Wilno, the same town that I went to school in, during the war, and I arranged for his visa to come to the United States at the time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is this at a time when you were in this country?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was in this country, and I knew that--this was before the outbreak of the war. I arranged for the visa to come to America, and he did not take advantage of it.
Mr. JENNER. That invasion was in September of 1939.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1939; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you made these arrangements before September 1939?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Before September 1939. And instead of that, you know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. Maybe he was too old, decided not to come to the United States. And then there was the German invasion of Poland and the Russian invasion on the other, and he happened to be in the Russian part of Poland, and naturally went into hiding.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You mean Russian part in the sense that the Russians invaded Poland?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To meet the Germans who were invading Poland from the other side?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So he then became engulfed by the Russians?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He became engulfed in advance of the Russian Army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence of life exile to Siberia against him. And at that time the Germans and the Russians were not at war yet, so the Russians and the Germans made an agreement that all the people of German or Baltic or Swedish origin could go to Germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to a special German commission set up for that effect in various towns.
Mr. JENNER. You say declare themselves openly. What do you mean by that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Declare themselves that they are willing to go and live in Germany, instead of living in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Declare allegiance to the German Government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right--declare allegiance to the German Government, and declare themselves Volkdeutsche, which means of Germanic origin. Russia had many millions of people of that type, an enormous German colony. So the Germans did it in order to get all those Germans from the Volga Province into their own country. And all the other people, like my father. And he declared himself willing to go to Germany, and the Germans took him into Germany. He would rather be with the Germans than with the Communists, and spent the rest of his life
Mr. JENNER. Was your father still anti-Communist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very strongly anti-Communist exceedingly strongly anti-Communist, almost fanatically so. Naturally, he had the sentence against him. And then he spent the rest of his life in Germany and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we know--some air raid hit that place where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what town it was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know the town, but it is an old castle in Oldenburg. It is near the Danish border. My brother is going to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the time to go and see that place. But he is in Europe now, and he will go and see the place where he was buried.
Eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters through some German friends who stayed there with him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it he was--we can at least fairly say that he had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the German cause?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I remember we exchanged letters with him during the war through some friends in Argentina and in Japan, before Japan got into the war. My father wrote me a letter in which he said, "George, the Nazis are no good, and Germany is going to lose the war, but I prefer to be in Germany than in Soviet Russia. At least I am free and nobody is bothering me."
It was the policy of the Germans to protect the people who had some positions in Czarist Russia. But he never became pro-Nazi. He was too clear thinking for that. He liked the Germans all right, but he was not pro-Nazi. But he hated Communism. That was his life's hatred.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have you back in New York City--this is when we went to lunch--around 1953--1952, 1953.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your partnership with Mr. Hooker had terminated.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; still active. I think it was in 1952--because I was not married---we still had the partnership. I was visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him I met my next wife, my last wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, who was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Wynne Sharples.
Mr. JENNER. She at that time was a student?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was just graduating from the medical school at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University. That was her last year. And she was late in her studies. She was 28 or 29 years old at that time. So she had missed a couple of years, you see. And we fell in love with each other and decided to get married.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the Sharples family.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia, Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and also in the oil business. And I had dealings with his nephew for many years.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Butler, Samuel Butler, Jr. He runs the oil end of Mr. Sharples' operations. And they had a small interest in Rangely Field. That is how I got acquainted with Mr. Butler.
So we knew about each other before--my wife's father, and so on and so forth--and--the daughter asked his advice, whether she should marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all right---obviously had sufficient good information from Butler about me. Butler was my best man at the wedding.
Mr. JENNER. Best man at your wedding to Miss Sharples?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Sam Butler.
There were several ushers. He was one of the ushers. I don't remember who was the best man. My brother was the best man. He was one of ushers. So we got married.
Mr. JENNER. Was the Sharples family wealthy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very wealthy.
Mr. JENNER. Socially prominent?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Socially prominent. But not too interested in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is interested.
Mr. JENNER. She has a nickname?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Didi.
Mr. JENNER. Some of the people apparently--voluntarily--they know her with that nickname Didi.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. We got married, I think, after her graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills.
Mr. JENNER. What is that--a suburb of Philadelphia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A suburb of Philadelphia. And she moved to Dallas, and I moved to Dallas, also, from Abilene, where I used to live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to take her residence in the hospital in Dallas. She was a resident physician----
Mr. JENNER. In what hospital?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the Baylor Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. Baylor University?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it university connected?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. But it is Baylor Hospital, in Dallas. It is not the same as Baylor University. It is called Baylor Hospital.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And she stayed there as a resident. I worked very often in my office in Dallas, instead of Abilene, and continued my partnership with Ed Hooker. But there developed a tremendous animosity between Ed Hooker's wife and my wife, Didi.
Mr. JENNER. And Ed Hooker's wife was----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Was an ex-model, very attractive girl, Marion. And probably my wife snubbed her or something. She didn't come from such a prominent family.
Anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. And Ed told me, "George, you are a fool to marry this girl--she is nuts." She had had nervous breakdowns.
Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. Hooker's wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is my ex-wife, Didi Sharples. She is very high strung--she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous breakdowns while going to medical school. I don't know if it is interesting for you, all those details.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think not as to that. I am interested, though--she came to Dallas with you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She came to Dallas to live with me. We had an apartment first. Then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm outside of Dallas. And then she had--we had two children, Sergei, and a girl, Nadejeda, whom we called Nadya because the name is very difficult. It is my aunt's name, and Sergei is my father's name.
Mr. JENNER. When were those children born?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. One year difference in 1953 and 1954.
Mr. JENNER. Your son was born in 1953 and your daughter in 1954?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think you were about to tell me some differences arose, you thought, between Mr. Hooker's wife and your wife.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did that have an effect on your partnership?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was more or less, I would say, a social problem and personal dislike. Ed is very much devoted to his wife. He told me one day, "We cannot continue this partnership in such unpleasant circumstances, and I think we should break our partnership and sell out what we have." We had some oil properties and we sold it out and divided the proceeds.
Oh, yes--also, Ed was dissatisfied that I moved away from the oilfield--another reason we broke our partnership. Because I was staying in the oilfields before that all the time. But now I moved to Dallas, and I could not be right in the center of the oil activity, according to him. It turned out to be that this actually was much better for the oil business, to be in Dallas than to be in Abilene.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, because we are more or less in the center of things than just in a small hick town, you see.
Mr. JENNER. You----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. At the same time about, when we were breaking this partnership, my wife's uncle, Col. Edward J. Walz, from Philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we formed a partnership just about the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Have you identified this new man?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Col. Edward J. Walz, this was my wife's uncle, Miss Sharples' uncle much younger than his--than her mother, but a man of substance, from Philadelphia--with whom we developed friendly relationship. He liked me and I liked him. And we decided to form a partnership, and we called this partnership Waldem Oil Co.--with the idea of doing the same thing I did with Ed Hooker--that I would do the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the business in Philadelphia.
We had several very successful dealings together. On our first drilling venture we found oil. I kept producing that little field for quite some time.
Mr. JENNER. What field?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Post field, in Texas--a small part of this field belonged to us, and we kept on producing. We did other operations in the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that.
But we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. We did small things. It was a small operation. But we always made money together. Eventually, after my wife and I got divorced.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you mention divorce. You and Wynne Sharples were divorced?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when did that take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That, I think, was in 1957, I guess, or 1956. We were married for 5 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it must have been 1957, then.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957, yes; it turned out to be that both of our children had cystic fibrosis--it is a terrible illness of genetic nature. The children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet.
Now, my ex-wife and I started a foundation, National Foundation for Cystic Fibrosis in Dallas, of which Jacqueline Kennedy was the honorary chairman.
Now, my ex-wife says that I didn't have much to do with this foundation, this Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, but actually I did, because I collected most of the money from my Dallas friends. It started with very little we--started with $10,000 or $20,000, and now it is a $2 million foundation, with headquarters in New York. Last year I was chairman of this foundation in Dallas for the first public subscription to our Cystic Fibrosis Fund for the Dallas children, and we got $25,000.
Now my son, Sergei, died from cystic fibrosis in 1960.
By the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a marriage have a very poor chance to survive. She wanted more children. She was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. The little girl is still alive. She lives in Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. She is with her mother?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. With her mother, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is her mother pursuing her profession in Philadelphia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her mother is not actually practicing but she is in charge of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Institute in Philadelphia, she is a trustee of Temple University.
But her husband, Dr. Denton----
Mr. JENNER. She remarried?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She remarried.
Mr. JENNER. What is his-full name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Dr. Robert Denton. He is the doctor who treated our children for cystic fibrosis. At present he is a professor of pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to go into the litigation. There was some litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with respect to some trust?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Trust fund.
Mr. JENNER. Established for whom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, for our son. Now, I had to contribute, according to the divorce, $125 a month for the support of the children, which I did, and she put that money in a trust fund. She did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children, because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to accept any more contribution of money from me. I objected on my side to the fact that I was removed away--that the children were very far away from me. They were living in Boston at the time, and I encountered constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the children. Well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after Sergei died, a long time afterwards, I received a notification that we inherited, my ex-wife and I--we inherited this trust fund.
Mr. JENNER. Which trust fund?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Established for Sergei, our son.
Mr. JENNER. Who established the trust fund?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, Mr. Sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the children's support--whatever money she could put in it. Anyway, it was a small trust fund of $24,000, which, eventually was split up between my ex-wife and myself--about $12,000 each. There was a litigation in regard to that, but I don't know if it is interesting for you.
Mr. JENNER. No---I have the complaints. Your ex-wife--Dr. Denton lives in Philadelphia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she does research work, does she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She doesn't do the actual research. She is more or less running the administration end of a second foundation. She was eventually asked to leave the National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation which we had formed together in Dallas, and which became this national foundation.
She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked to resign, or resigned herself---I don't know for sure the other trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she is running the administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she is running this foundation as an administrator.
Mr. JENNER. Do you visit your child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live with me, you see.
Mr. JENNER. The daughter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just the opposite that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation last year as to--I tried to take the custody away from her, because of various reasons--mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that--we went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is also under psychiatric treatment.
Mr. JENNER. Who is?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric treatment--because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters, because they are healthy, and she is not.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that your former wife--there had been some children born of her present marriage?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; who have no cystic fibrosis.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the suit was filed in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. She commenced it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you resist it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we came to an agreement that we would get a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell our house and settle our accounts.
Mr. JENNER. Property?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story about that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did you remain in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the foreign end of this business.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean foreign end?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In 1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private--for some private individuals connected with Sinclair Oil Company.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1956--just before our divorce, I think. We were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956.
Sorry--too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr. Sharples, because my ex-wife's father--I did some foreign work for him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign jobs--maybe jobs in Nigeria.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know what countries you were taken to in connection with those.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions---it was in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France I may have forgotten with some other countries where I did not have to go, but I did some work right there in Dallas examined the geological work and made suggestions.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And eventually----
Mr. JENNER. You did travel to Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; many, many times.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with that work.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In Cuba, too.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, in Cuba---I traveled in Cuba before Castro, during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development--a land development to promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over, and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his office that--type of job that I had from time to time.
Mr. JENNER. I want to get the countries now. Cuba----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Cuba, Mexico, Ghana----
Mr. JENNER. These are your travels now?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is where I actually went.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I want to know.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ghana, Nigeria, Togoland, and France.
Mr. JENNER. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and development for what group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. For No. 1--for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan Trust--that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co. in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now--were there some other companies?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all consulting jobs for clients of mine either from Texas or from New York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to a job in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. That was for----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was for ICA--a job for ICA and for the Yugoslav Government.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what ICA is.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. International Cooperation Administration here in Washington--which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia and help them develop oil resources under the I don't know--some kind of government deal. Under this----
Mr. JENNER. Did a man named Charles Mitchell accompany you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes---George Mitchell.
Mr. JENNER. And his wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicists. In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there.
Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He was married.
Mr. JENNER. And his wife accompanied him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She did; yes.
Mr. JENNER. This was for the International Cooperation Administration?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Washington 25, D.C.
The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA paid my salary.
Mr. JENNER. And you had a contract of some kind?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think the contract was for 8 or 9 months.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere around February of 1957, wasn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I left for Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you left for Yugoslavia when?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8 months, and I returned in October.
Mr. JENNER. 1957?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1957; yes. All the reports were made---quite a considerable number of reports were made in triplicates--some of them went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went to the Bureau of Mines here.
Mr. JENNER. That was nonsecurity work, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking me---after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me. One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well, George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia."
Mr. JENNER. In the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I. Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a couple of weeks.
Mr. JENNER. She was not yet divorced at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a divorce.
Mr. JENNER. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she was living there, also?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was living there, also. And she had this separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. Was her daughter with her at that time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think she was. She came over later.
Mr. JENNER. I mean was her daughter living in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; her daughter was living in California.
Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that town?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Where she lived in California?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some canyon--Cayuga Canyon. She can tell you about that.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry her. A very charming fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your present wife live with each other before you were married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you can remember this.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the name of God we were married, because I remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are married--in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it in the name of----
Mr. JENNER. You had a civil ceremony?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After your wife had become divorced from her former husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he changed his name to LeGon.
Mr. JENNER. Can you spell that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the States they used the name of LeGon.
Mr. JENNER. When you and your wife married--by the way, her given name is Jeanne, is it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually, her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter came to live with us. She came from France to live with us.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your daughter. That is your daughter Alexandria?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And she had been living in France?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She had been--she was brought up by her aunt in Arizona, because her mother----
Mr. JENNER. And her aunt's name is what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nancy Clark--and eventually she became Nancy Tilton III. Anyway----
Mr. JENNER. She lives where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson, Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her husband, Mr. Clark.

Mr. JENNER. Her aunt's husband?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is the daughter by your marriage to Miss Pierson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left her with--it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European way--that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt--my daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We call it an aunt--whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin, it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent practically all her childhood there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.
Mr. JENNER. Did your former wife consent?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Which one?
Mr. JENNER. To the adoption?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the daughter.
I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandria because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person to live with. And Alexandria asked me and her mother to take her away from her. We had a lawsuit---not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it--a custody case.
Mr. JENNER. Where was this, in Tucson?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, that was in Palm Beach--because Nancy took Alexandria with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us. And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided that she should be with us.
Mr. JENNER. When was this?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was in 1956.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say "with us." Who do you mean?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean either with me or with the mother--with the mother who became Mrs.--what a complication--Mrs. Brandel--my ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandria, became Mrs. Brandel. Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a television producer.
Mr. JENNER. So your ex-wife, Dorothy Pierson----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And myself--asked the judge to decide with whom our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not married. I could not offer her a home although I wanted her to be with me.
And then the judge said, "Well, you go with your mother to France."
And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on.
That is why we had the house on Thackery. She lived with us.
Mr. JENNER. She did come to live with you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After you were married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She lived with us in Dallas for quite some time.
And, finally, she eloped from school----
Mr. JENNER. From what school?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Highland Park School.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now.
Mr. JENNER. That was last September, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, last September.
Mr. JENNER. And----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They have a little boy by the name of Curtis Lee Taylor.
Mr. JENNER. And who has custody of that child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The boy has the custody.
Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information, is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor.
Mr. JENNER. Gary has remarried, did you know that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out what is happening to the child.
Mr. JENNER. You say you keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor. Which Mrs. Taylor?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less, takes care of the little boy right now.
Mr. JENNER. Following that divorce, your daughter--what did she do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She went to school, to Tucson, to study----
Mr. JENNER. What school is that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere in New York right now.

Mr. JENNER. Has she remarried?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch with her right now.
The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now.
Mr. JENNER. How old is she now?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She will be 19 now.
Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to know either Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I will get to that, then.
While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present wife's daughter.
What is her name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as my wife's.
Mr. JENNER. There is something indicating that her name was Elinor.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Jeanne Elinor LeGon--middle name Elinor. My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but that is beside the point.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She changed her name----
Mr. JENNER. Your daughter did?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon.
Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana Bogoiavlensky--whatever I hear about it.
Mr. JENNER. Is your daughter married--is Christiana married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To whom is she married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She married Ragnar Kearton.
Mr. JENNER. And who is Ragnar Kearton?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California, from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them.
Lately they moved to Alaska, and have been living there.
Mr. JENNER. What is----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Working for the Forestry Department.
Mr. JENNER. In Alaska?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Christiana also known as Christiana Valentina?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. Never heard that name.
Mr. JENNER. After she married Kearton----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They changed their name to--according to them--to make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their name, and that was by mutual agreement.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband, Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married, they--his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is my understanding.
Mr. JENNER. And after they were married they changed their name to Le Gon?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand that when they came from China, they decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed their name to Le Gon.
I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying that name professionally. She is well known--she is a well known designer, she has a name practically as a trademark.
Mr. JENNER. She met Mr. Bogoiavlensky in China?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I was not particularly---
Mr. JENNER. She will tell us first-hand tomorrow.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand of her family--she also has Russian background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in China, and she was born in China and lived there.
Mr. JENNER. Harbin?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She came to the United States the same year I did.
Mr. JENNER. That is a pure coincidence?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New York, and didn't know each other--right next door.
Mr. JENNER. I understand you are very happily married.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. At last.
Mr. JENNER. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the present time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her husband.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to visit us in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. When did that take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They came to stay with us in December.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And January 1964?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where does your daughter live when her husband is in Alaska?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place in both places.
Mr. JENNER. But they are presently vacationing or traveling in Europe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do they have any children?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They have no children.
Mr. JENNER. What are Mr. Kearton's interests?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Interests in life? Or professional interests?
Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the professional ones first.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Professional--he is--my wife will tell you more about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is of ultra conservative tendencies politically.
Mr. JENNER. Please explain that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100 percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And----
Mr. JENNER. Well, is he an aggressive----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very aggressive fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Is he aggressive politically?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether he has any actual political--I mean whether he actually works to have Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration for him.
I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself.
Mr. JENNER. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife, Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is probably it, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced almost exactly 5 years later, in April 1956?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, that is correct--5 years. I have the date clearly in my mind.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, let me ask you this at the moment: Are you a drinker?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally, but not too much.
Mr. JENNER. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything, a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close to it.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is not true, because I have been drunk many times--not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I have drunk more than I should.
Mr. JENNER. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in August 1960.
Mr. JENNER. You are sure of that--rather than 1961?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960--I am pretty sure.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I have might be a misprint.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at dates. But I think it is 1960.
Mr. JENNER. You are very good on names, though.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at. That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we did it.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to get into that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If you are interested, go ahead.
Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted myself.
At this point, tell me your political philosophies.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My political philosophy is live and let live. I voted Republican, but--I am just not interested in politics.
Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat, because I believe in freedom.
Mr. JENNER. Are you talking about individual freedom now?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of criticizing something which I think is not democratic.
Mr. JENNER. What is your attitude towards communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that subject. But I consider the other person's point of view.
If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his business.
Mr. JENNER. Have you----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some good characteristics in communism.
Mr. JENNER. There are some indications that you have expressed that view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this country, that there are some good qualities in communism.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there we mean--or what do you mean? What is your concept of communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am looking at communism more or less more from the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation it may be a solution.
Mr. JENNER. A temporary one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A temporary one, yes---which eventually, and I believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way of life.
Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like business to be free. But----
Mr. JENNER. You like individual freedom and free enterprise?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Which you find in the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development communism is not good?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that about it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today.
It is a book which says that--which is available any place here--which says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies---could exist eventually.
But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are producing more than they can eat--you see what I mean? And they develop the tools to produce industrial goods.
While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. You see what I mean?
Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti, which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than they can produce. Now, what can save those countries?
Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So that is something to think about and worthwhile reading.
Mr. JENNER. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual freedom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without it.
Mr. JENNER. Sometimes to excess.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor Faubus, in Arkansas--saying "What happens there? Is that an example of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made an impression on them. A few examples like that.
Mr. JENNER. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates with the Communists?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Occasionally--after a few drinks, you can talk to them. But they were engineers and geologists--they were not people active politically--they were not big shots.
With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you can discuss.
Mr. JENNER. Are you interested in debate?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world attack while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean? A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me, "George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are not for freedom."
Mr. JENNER. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites are not for freedom?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction.
For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an international force?"
I said, "No."
He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for."
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I get sometimes into heated discussions and sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred against anybody. I don't hate communism--hell, let them live.
Mr. JENNER. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it yourself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't want it myself; no.
Mr. JENNER. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection with the International Cooperation Administration?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to use Yugoslav workers and American equipment.
Mr. JENNER. What workers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who, among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita, Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be a good idea to form a joint venture,. American-Yugoslav joint venture, using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see.
And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility of forming such a venture.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia for the International----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the next year. This was in 1958.
Mr. JENNER. Were you then married?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had married your present wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates. Yes--I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not, in the summer?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage.
Mr. JENNER. I haven't reached Oswald yet.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I expressed my point of view pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. All right.
John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract for me to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic countries especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point. But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not use American equipment?
I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable in Washington?"
And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea."
It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian venture--form a corporation.
I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project.
I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said, "George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do business with those damned Communists."
So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs.
Mr. JENNER. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably, or 1959.
Mr. JENNER. What led you to go to Ghana?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman. The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is Ghana.
And while there--he travels around Africa all the time--he found out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana, indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still are supposed to have it, this concession.
Mr. JENNER. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a philatelist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. When we arrived in Ghana?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.
Mr. JENNER. Explain that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a trick, because I was representing the philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist.
Mr. JENNER. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, because I even didn't go through--I didn't spend any time in Accra. I went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr. Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all those countries, as far as concessions go.
Mr. JENNER. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp. have anything--was that political in any nature, and I say political with a capital P.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; of course they have to be friendly with Nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only affiliation they have with him.
Mr. JENNER. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects whatsoever?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have explained?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A hundred percent business.
Mr. JENNER. Except that you were working for the International Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had no political, capital P, implications whatsoever?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was purely business.
Mr. JENNER. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool Corp., that was strictly business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. No politics involved?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have.
Mr. JENNER. Representing----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never, never.
Mr. JENNER. Any government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You can repeat it three times.
Mr. JENNER. Any government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No I could take what you call the fifth amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to.
Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You are more than welcome. I have never been an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the, Polish Army--$5 a month.

Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations.
Mr. JENNER. Subject to that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, no political angle to it.
Mr. JENNER. What I am driving at--whether you work for a foreign government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime have you at any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or a government or even a group against a government?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of any political group.
Mr. JENNER. And any views you have expressed during your rather colorful life have been your personal views?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Personal views; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, with a capital P, on behalf of any group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like in Texas--I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I say what I think.

Mr. JENNER. Whether they pay you or not----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have never been a member of any group of any kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian venture the time that you had the company when you were a young man in Europe, traveled around Europe.
We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you came here in May of 1938.
I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you started to tell us about, and I had you hold off--your trip down into Mexico and the Central American countries--tell us about that in your own words, how it came about, and what you did.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I started explaining that already, that it is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we were both young men in Mexico.
And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the Conquistadors.
You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines, and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I started collecting through the years---I started collecting information on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico.
But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very--practically out of my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all that--I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central America, and possibly all the way to South America.
And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical therapy for your mental problems.
And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me that that is something we should do.
We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States.
Mr. JENNER. What ranch?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This was--that is the ranch which belongs to a friend of ours. It is called the--it is Piedras Negras. It is on the Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras.
There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have--they are half Mexican, half Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras.
By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them, a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in the outdoor life.
And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200 kilometers--Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way to the Panama Canal.
Mr. JENNER. All the way to where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The Panama Canal.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what countries you passed through.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole of San Salvador--El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama.
And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to nature for a whole year.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in Mexico City during this trip?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico City.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that is interesting. This is completely a different incident.
I went to Mexico City, I guess, with--a year before that, on behalf of----
Mr. JENNER. Just a minute.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. This is another consulting job.
Mr. JENNER. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the end of 1960 and 1961--all of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That took about 8 months?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Almost a year.
Mr. JENNER. So you would return in the late fall of 1961?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1961.
Mr. JENNER. November, I believe.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other occasion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A different occasion; yes.
Mr. JENNER. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as well complete it. Tell us about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About this Mikoyan incident?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words, this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border.
Mr. JENNER. We talk about gas here--we are talking about natural gas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in jeopardy-somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big Inch from Texas to the east--through their vice president, John Jacobs, asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government.
Mr. JENNER. You say "we."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife went with me.
Mr. JENNER. Your present wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did this take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was--I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960 one or the other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before many times. But this particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you call it, was this particular----
Mr. JENNER. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is the pilot of the president--the personal pilot of the President Mateos of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there.
By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract--which is the Mexican Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans.
Mr. JENNER. So you were then really competing with the Russians?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Competing with the Russians. And through my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the most interesting jobs I ever had.
And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group--the rest of them were technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George, why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?"
I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to meet the character."
He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to learn something from him.
So I said, "All right, I will go with you."
And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people at Texas Eastern will look at it--they may look at it in a very peculiar manner, if you appear with Mikoyan"--and the Texas Eastern people--they are very conservative Texas people--if I appear in public with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them.
Mr. JENNER. Particularly having in mind your Russian background?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she says, "I better go instead of you."
Mr. JENNER. Your wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; so the next morning she went with the Mexican major, the pilot of the president--he still is a pilot for the president today, and he is married to an American--he is not a Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport.
It was full of security officers--the Russian security officers and the Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that mess.
Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will introduce you to Mikoyan."
And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you, Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that security officers without being detected--because she was right there in that group. So she said--he asked her where she is from, and she says, "I am from Texas."
"What do you mean from Texas?"
She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner."
And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see you." So here was the Mikoyan incident.
Mr. JENNER. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan incident?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I declined to go--purely for business reasons--because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy buddy with Mikoyan.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the Central American countries--wasn't that about the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything about it.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know anything about it.
Mr. JENNER. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing to do with it except I remember we arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street, we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country--you have to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails.
Mr. JENNER. The old Conquistador trails?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me.
And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys."
The consulate we received our mail through the American consulate.
Mr. JENNER. In Guatemala City?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Everywhere--Guatemala City, San Salvador--not Honduras, but in San Jose--everywhere we received our mail through the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul there could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry my shotgun there.
He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you."
And then we left Guatemala City--2 days later--we read the paper on the road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central American countries?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we took--I took--we walked and found our way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples.
Mr. JENNER. Samples of what?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to have----
Mr. JENNER. How did you carry it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We sent them back--we carried--all the stuff we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry 150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written. It is a manuscript I have 600 pages--day for day description of our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a publisher in France, and they may publish it.
Mr. JENNER. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more color it might be salable.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by day--that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of our trip, day by day.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, that took quite some time each day to record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make movies of that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We have a movie made of it, which I have here with me, because I would like to show it--I showed it to many friends in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about 1,200 feet--three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of our trip.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we became completely native. We ate only what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed. All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people that we had money with us--we did carry money with us.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that trip end?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S. Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles written about our trip in the local papers.
Mr. JENNER. You mean local in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Local in Dallas--and local papers in Central America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason.
Mr. JENNER. It has no political implications whatsoever?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No political implications. I am not interested at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war in Panama, the guerilla fights. But itis all recorded in my book.
But I had nothing to do with it.
Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We just arrived from the border of Texas to Panama. We performed one big chunk of--we covered a big chunk of territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not many people can do it, you know.
Mr. JENNER. When you completed that trip----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. When we completed this trip, we were very tired, and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you select Haiti?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, as I said before, I had been there many times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going to visit this old man, a friend of my father's.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to be a very wealthy man in Russia--also involved in the oil industry in Russia, and in Czarist Russia--a friend of my father's. And I discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost like his son.
We went to visit him--I was worried that he might die, and he died very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing, taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian Government at the same time.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Already then.
Mr. JENNER. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now--in which you are now engaged?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the first step. I received a letter--I still have it--the letter from the Minister of Finance that they are interested in my project, which the project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that contract.
Mr. JENNER. Here, again, this is all business?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely business.
Mr. JENNER. No political or like considerations?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You have never been a member of any subversive group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never have.
Mr. JENNER. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups are you a member?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not a member--I am not interested. I am too busy.
Mr. JENNER. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If you call that a group; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is a group.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them political or otherwise, of which you have been a member.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum Club political?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be, because I don't live there any more.
I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists.
I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now.
I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists.
I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it.
Purely professional organizations.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in the affairs of--whether you have been a member of--irrespective of whether you have been a member of, I should say--any political action group, even such things as the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even knew it existed.
You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics, except when I want to improve something in our way of life.
Mr. JENNER. In our own way.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing. But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself.
Mr. JENNER. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on your part?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to Congressmen--if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the Congressman from Texas here, and I know--I write letters to people in Washington when I want to have something done about something.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned to the United States.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Returned to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you land?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We landed in--we came by Lykes--Lykes Line ship directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La.
Mr. JENNER. Lake Charles?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lake Charles.
And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Who were your friends that met you there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The friends there were two employees of Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and Jim Savage, engineer.
Mr. JENNER. You had known Jim Savage for some time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had known Kitchel for some time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. We are now into 1962, are we?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the early part of the year?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment in the same place very close to the same neighborhood we used to live 6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife started working--because we were getting short of money. We spent all the money on our trip--including this Haiti stay. And at the same time I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing consulting work, in Dallas.
Now, I should repeat again--I am glad you reminded me of some of those dates, because you have them written down, and I don't. So I cannot vouch for some of the dates.
Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head at the moment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You have a better memory for dates than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to work for----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She had broken her contract with a very large manufacturer. She had a very good contract--to come on this trip with me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her profession of designer.
So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she started working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in Dallas at or along about that time.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same type---in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens.
Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to the right, but all within the limits of true democracy.
One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is Ilya Mamantov.
I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them.
He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society group, because he works for a large company.
Mr. JENNER. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people. Voshinin. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Igor.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis--Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I just met her once or twice---hardly spoken to her.
Mr. JENNER. The Clarks?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know them very well.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Max and his wife, Gall.
Mr. JENNER. Gall is of Russian derivation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Russian descent, born in France of the upper society in Russia--she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States.
Mr. JENNER. What about Mr. Clark?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background, who is a lawyer, as you know.
Mr. JENNER. A lady by the name of Khrystinik?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you don't pronounce correctly her name.
Mr. JENNER. That may well be.
Paul Raigorodsky?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is another Russian who is very successful in business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and years.
Mr. JENNER. Let me see some others that come to my mind.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk. You are acquainted with her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very slightly.
Mr. JENNER. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort Worth, Irving area.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think she is Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Which one?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Either one of them--the one who is in the advertising business.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a leader of the community, is he?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is their history?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she is----
Mr. JENNER. I mean derivation.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is American.
Mr. JENNER. He is a native American. And she is----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of Russian parentage.

Mr. JENNER. Tatiana Biggers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think I know it.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the son.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know them.
Mr. JENNER. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the Russian community?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there are others.
Mr. JENNER. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the Oswalds.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know who of them might have met the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. What about Sam Ballen?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians. And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of Voshinin--of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows the others. Maybe he does. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind this group of people----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then the priest must know them all--the Russian priest.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox priest there.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Father Dimitri.
Mr. JENNER. Father Dimitri--he is from Houston, is he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor of Spanish at SMU.
Mr. JENNER. In that connection, there are two----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I know that he knows Marina.
Mr. JENNER. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or sects or groups, in Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that developed.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The one that Father Dimitri is the head of he is an American and quite a large membership of Americans--they have converted. And the services are in English, although the others--some services are in Russian also.
Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are segregated into two groups.
Mr. JENNER. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us call it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably, that is right.
Mr. JENNER. And also Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other group.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; he does.
Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into Dallas, through these church groups?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; most of the time I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at least during the time I don't know what your propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when you were in Dallas, were you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in, the old guard church.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't like Father Dimitri?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; the previous one.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa.
Mr. JENNER. It has been said or reported by--from a few sources, during the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a little bit of my time for the services---for instance, as I said, to sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church, if that is the answer.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And especially I do not believe in trying to convert people constantly they push to convert people. But I go occasionally---on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to see the group, because I like many of those people.
Mr. JENNER. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest or belief in communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Communists are----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Communism is a religion, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two--maybe one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox denomination.
Mr. JENNER. But this is speculation on your part?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know for sure.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with others?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand for a year to be in the Jungle.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say, Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.
Mr. JENNER. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in your social habits.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; probably. What do they say--what do they mean?
Mr. JENNER. Well, you are prone to be a little----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Shock people.
Mr. JENNER. Shock people; yes. That is generally so?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And why do you do that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it is interesting to see people's reaction--if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their boredom. Sometimes life is very boring.
Mr. JENNER. And get you out of your boredom, too?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe my boredom also.
Mr. JENNER. Well----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But generally people like to be asked provocative questions and to be given provocative answers. I think so, at least.
Mr. JENNER. You are a man--I will put it this way----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I hope so.
Mr. JENNER. You like to have fun?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a little more serious-minded?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It Certainly has been suggested.
Mr. JENNER. It has even been said you might grow up a little bit?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you are fun-loving?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right. That I am. Well, I don't believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. Might as well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to paint a picture here, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, of the milieu or background in Dallas when you first met the Oswalds, what kind of a community it was.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I understand.
Mr. JENNER. How you moved around in it, and what part you played in it, and what part your wife played in it. I gather that the community of which you speak, the people of Russian derivation, were close, you saw a good deal of them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is close because there are not many. It is not like New York--although in New York I know also thousands of Russians, and in Philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. But mainly in Dallas there are only maybe, as you know, 30 families, maybe 25 families, all in all. So they are a little bit closer together. And a very pleasant relationship--be-cause they are all good people and with a few exceptions I think we all like each other, and used to get along very well, until Oswald appeared on the horizon.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get to that.
I want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than coming by any suggestion from me. Would you try and put in your own words this Russian community as it was when Oswald and Marina came to the Dallas area, Fort Worth, in June of 1962---without involving them now. What was the milieu and the background of the situation?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, a purely social group, a little bit divided by classes. You see what I mean?
Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a little differentiation in classes there.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us about it.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In other words, people with good education and a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a question of money as a question of good education, and of background. And Bouhe comes from an excellent family. This Gall Clark, of course, comes from a No. 1 family of Russia. Paul Raigorodsky comes from an excellent family, excellent education. Those were the people with whom we were very close.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a man by the name of Zavoico?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He is----
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Basil.
Mr. JENNER. He lives in Connecticut now?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a wealthy man?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. He has had many, many, many years--many more than all of us, in the oil business.
Mr. JENNER. Never part of the community?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We all knew him. Because there are so few people in this geological field. And he is an old acquaintance of mine.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there was a Professor Jitkoff in Houston?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I just met him once or twice. I know his wife better.
Mr. JENNER. IS his wife also a Russian emigre?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she is of Armenian, or Russian and Armenian, extraction.
Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you meet him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Already a long time ago. Oh, yes; I met him through another Russian, through ballerina, a Russian ballerina, another one who lived there Natasha Krosofska, a famous ballerina.
Mr. JENNER. I am thinking of another name in Dallas, Mrs. Helen Leslie.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is her stepmother--the stepmother of the ballerina.
Mr. JENNER. She was part of the Russian group?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; also from a typical old guard family--really hundred percent. To show you the atmosphere who does not believe there are any new houses built in Russia today? She said in her opinion the Russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever---only the old palaces from the czarist days.
Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The really backward type old guard people. I am glad that you made such a distinction there.
Mr. JENNER. Is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to believe that if an American went to Russia and came back with a Russian wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some connections of some kind with the Communists in order to get a Russian wife out of Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is an interesting question. They might believe anything, because they think that the Russians are such devils that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, among the Russian emigre group in Dallas, did you ever know of anybody that you even thought might be a Communist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not a single one.
Mr. JENNER. Or have any leanings toward communism?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no leanings even. I am probably the most leftest of them all.
Mr. JENNER. And you do not----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And as you know, I am not a member of any party.
Mr. JENNER. And you do not regard yourself as a Communist?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Not only do I not regard--I just am not. But I am probably the only one who has been in the Communist country, because of my job with ICA, and also, I forgot to tell you that I had visited Poland in 1958, after my job with ICA. I went to visit Poland, as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. I Just went there for a period of 10 days, to Warsaw, and then went to Sweden from there, and then returned back to the, States.
Mr. JENNER. This was after----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. After I finish my job in Yugoslavia.
Mr. JENNER. Give me--I am going to pose a hypothetical to you. Let us assume that a Russian couple would come to Dallas, let us say right now--no friends, not know anybody in Dallas. What would normally happen? As soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the community--the Russian group became acquainted with the fact that there was a Russian couple?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They would be exceedingly interested, naturally.
Mr. JENNER. Curious?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exceedingly curious.
Mr. JENNER. Now, if you were there, would that include you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your wife?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, aside from us--the most curious would be George Bouhe, because he actually met us first--the first in Dallas---he told us about Oswald, as far as I remember. Because he is curious by nature. He wants to know what is going on. He wants to convert them to the Greek Orthodox Church, and so on.
Mr. JENNER. Would there be any effort to help these people become acquainted throughout the community?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. If they--if that couple came from Soviet Russia, from the Soviet Union, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's assume that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the old guard would not do anything. They would be curious, but--they might meet them and very soon afterwards they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them would not fit with their beliefs. And we know that Soviet Russia is a going concern. To them it is not, it does not exist. It just isn't there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when did you first meet either Marina--I will put it this way: When did you first hear----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The first time----
Mr. JENNER. Of either of these people--Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, George Bouhe, who is a close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there is an interesting couple in Fort Worth, and that the Clarks know them already--Max. Clark and Gali--they know them already. Somebody read about them in the paper--I don't know exactly, I don't remember the exact wording any more that somebody read about them in the paper, maybe Mr. Gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery.
Mr. JENNER. Now----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. But we heard from George Bouhe the first time.
Mr. JENNER. At this time were you aware that there had been an American who had gone to the Soviet Union and attempted to defect to the Soviet Union?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that he had returned to the United States?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is what I heard from George Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. That was the first you ever knew anything at all about----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard about them, never heard anything about them before.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Same thing. I think we were both together when this conversation took place.
Mr. JENNER. When did it take place?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I could not tell you the date. I think in the summer of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of what George Bouhe said to you about the Oswalds on that occasion.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He said rather a complimentary account of them---I don't think he met them yet. I think he just heard about them.
Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection he had just heard about them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent family---supposedly. And he is a fellow who got disappointed in Soviet Russia and returned to the United States, and that met with George Bouhe's approval--somebody who did that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he even knew that he had been an ex-Marine, and all that. I don't think he knew anything about that.
Mr. JENNER. When George Bouhe spoke to you then--have you exhausted your recollections as to the conversation right at that point?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think about it. I just remember that I got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a woman she is.
Mr. JENNER. Were you particularly interested when you heard she was pretty?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not particularly. No; because but it is nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster.
Mr. JENNER. You have----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am always curious to find somebody better looking than horrible. We are talking about serious things.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is part of the atmosphere, Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure, sure; naturally.
Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued and courted them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I Still do, I hope. Until the day I die. But anyway, it was not really so. It was Just an interesting couple who were it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from Soviet Russia that had arrived, because we all picture Soviet Russian women like a commando--big, fat women, working in a brick factory.
Mr. JENNER. You were curious to find out more about them, were you not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Again, now, my recollections are a little bit vague on that.
I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure how I first met them.
Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My best recollection--I even cannot recall who gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see.
And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth.
I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend, Colonel Orlov.
Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lawrence Orlov--he is an American, but he has a Russian name for some reason--maybe his great- grandfather came from Russia.
And to my best recollection, Lawrence and I were on some business in Fort Worth, and I told him let's go and meet those people, and the two of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door, and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there.
Mr. JENNER. This was during the daytime?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Late in the afternoon, after business hours, 5 o'clock.
Mr. JENNER. You and Colonel Orlov?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Colonel Orlov.
Mr. JENNER. She answered the door.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You identified yourself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I said a few words in Russian, I said we are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a little bit, giving them something for the baby or Something. I think he had already been in--he helps everybody. He has been helping her especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby, horrible surroundings.
Mr. JENNER. Now we are interested in a couple of things. You found that she knew substantially no English?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No English at all at that time. I think she knew maybe I remember that I asked her, "How do you buy things ill the store," and she said, "I point with my finger and I can say 'yes' and 'no'." That is all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go into the home---was it a house or apartment?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I remember--near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not paved.
Mr. JENNER. What did you talk to her about?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Just asked her how she likes it here, and how she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like that--completely meaningless conversation.
And I think Lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand what I was saying. He doesn't know Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask about her husband?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I said, "Well, I would like to meet your husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to sit down, offered me something to drink, I think--she had some sherry or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection.
And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little while, Oswald, Lee appeared.
Mr. JENNER. You say Lee appeared?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Lee appeared.
Mr. JENNER. Lee appeared. You had never seen him before?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never seen him before.
Mr. JENNER. And he came in?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He came in.
Mr. JENNER. What happened, and what was said?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he loved to speak Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you introduce yourself? And explain why you were there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I want to see how you are getting along."
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak in Russian or English?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In English at first, and then he switched to Russian.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss life in Russia, how he got there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think the first time. I don't think the first time I said anything at all, you know. Possibly he told me that he had been in Minsk, and that got me curious, because I had lived in Minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of Minsk. He got me curious, you know.
But I do not recall for sure whether it was the first time I met him or the second time or the third time. I don't remember. I think it was a very short meeting the first time, because Lawrence Orlov was there, and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "Well, we will see you," and possibly Marina had mentioned that her baby needed--that she needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not been inoculated. Possibly that was that time. But I am not so sure.
Mr. JENNER. At least there was a time when that did arise?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given to the child?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly side?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head, bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby looked like Khrushchev.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to prod you, because I want you to tell the story in your own words.
Now, you had this visit, and you returned home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the first visit was very short, and we drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also struck me as a very sympathetic fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time your first impression.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The first impression and the last impression remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something charming about him, there was some--I don't know. I just liked the guy--that is all.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached home, you reported on this----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You know, he was very humble with me he was very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed, absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think he liked me very much.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; he did. It is so reported, and Marina has so said.
Well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the relations between Marina and Lee, I assume?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I already noticed then that the couple that they were not getting along, right away.
Mr. JENNER. What made you have that impression?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, there was a strained relationship there. You could feel that. And, you know how it is--you can see that the couple that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in talking to me than to her. That type of attitude.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. You drew him into conversation or situations--especially when you asked something about him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly. I think that is his main characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in Marina. And she remained quite often in the background.
Later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and he would do the talking.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have an arrogant attitude?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; with me he has never been arrogant. Even when we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him, and Marina away from him later--you know that?
Mr. JENNER. I want to get that in sequence. But you did it yourself, did you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife and I; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things develop. And how attitudes changed, and everything.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, then we started getting reports, you know, from George Bouhe and the Clarks about them. We didn't see them very often.
Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say you didn't see them very often. Maybe you didn't.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I want to know how this developed.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----
Mr. JENNER. When next did you see them, after this initial event?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't remember. I don't remember. But I do know that we saw Marina very soon afterward, because either my wife went to get her or my daughter went to get her--I don't remember that any more---to take her to the hospital. Or maybe George Bouhe brought her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take her to the dental clinic. I think that was the next time that we saw Marina. Maybe a few days later.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, it was before Marina went to live with the Mellers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was before Marina went to live with the Taylors?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
She never lived with the Taylors. I think she spent I night with them, and that is all. She lived, I think--I think both of them lived somewhere in neighborhood. I think she spent I night with my daughter, when she happened to be in Dallas for this medical care. And since they are about the age of my daughter--she is a little bit older, but about the same age I don't remember how it happened, but either I or my wife introduced Marina to my daughter, and also Lee. This is very vague in my mind, what happened there.
Mr. JENNER. Well, your recollection is that within a few days George Bouhe brought Marina to your home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of having your wife take Marina to get some dental care?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And where was she taken?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was taken to the Baylor Dental Clinic.
Mr. JENNER. That is located where?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It is right in the center of Dallas, near the Slaughter Hospital--what a name for a hospital. It is the name of the man who founded it.
Well, the dental clinic is right there next door. They give you dental care gratis, or almost for nothing.
George Bouhe was giving her money, by the way.
Mr. JENNER. He was giving her money?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean small amounts of money, you know, either for injections or something like that--because she didn't have anything.
Mr. JENNER. She was destitute, was she?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Completely destitute--because Lee was at the time losing his job. I don't recall when he told me that---maybe already at the first meeting. He told me that he was about to lose his job. He was working somewhere in Fort Worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker.
Mr. JENNER. Leslie Welding Co.?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the name of it. This company was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. At least that was his version. Maybe he was fired.
Mr. JENNER. That was his version. That wasn't the fact.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a fact?
Mr. JENNER. It was not. Your wife also took the baby for some medical care?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such injections." And this I remember well--that she didn't do it. She didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother. Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia, did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing.
Mr. JENNER. How did you find out she had been a pharmacist in Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that eventually came--the second time or the third time that we met her--she told us the story of her life.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to what she told you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Well, she said exactly her story of her life as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-Czarist officers. That her father had been a Czarist officer of some kind---you see what I mean? I don't remember whether it was navy or army. I don't recall it any more. That her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not treat her well. That they moved--I think they lived in Leningrad when she was a child. That eventually they moved to Minsk. I don't remember what her father's profession was.
One thing I remember--that one of her uncles was a big shot Government official, something like that---colonel or something like that. That I remember she told me.
And then she went to this school of pharmacists, I think in Minsk, and graduated as a pharmacist. And one day she was walking by this river, which I also remember, in Minsk---the River Svisloch, which crosses the whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments, and that is where the foreigners lived.
She said it was her dream some day to live in an apartment like that. And that is where Lee Oswald lived. And eventually when they met---I remember they met at some dance I think he was ill, something like that, after that dance, and she came to take care of him. That is something I have a vague recollection of---that she took care of him, and from then on they fell in love and eventually got married. But she said it was the apartment house that was one of the greatest things she desired to live in, and she found out later on that Lee Oswald lived in that apartment house, and she finally achieved her dream.
It sounds ridiculous, but that is how in Soviet Russia they dream of apartments rather than of people.
She told us a tremendous amount of things which will come to me as things go on.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally I was talking to her and to him---I was trying to find out what is life of young people in Soviet Russia, what are the prices on food, what can you get for your money, what salary you get, what amusements you get.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what they said.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The salaries--she was getting an equivalent of $60 a month. He was getting something like $80 a month. That almost all of it had to be spent on food. The lodging was very cheap, almost nothing, because it was provided by the Government. That the food was rather plentiful, you could get it--but it was rather monotonous. Sometimes you could not get meat. They used to have discussions between them all the time always they quarreled about--Lee Oswald and Marina always quarreled between themselves as to what actually were the prices, what actually were the conditions of life in Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about the differences here.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The attitudes she had, and the attitude he had.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he liked the conditions in Russia more than she did.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people were interested in him, you see. That very often---he worked in a TV factory--the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the United States and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was that type of an individual who needed attention.
Marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than he did--- as far as I remember. Yet she was not too critical, you see. It was a livable way of life.
Actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there than in Fort Worth. In other words, both were disappointed in what happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was getting more and more things from people people like the Clarks, like ourselves, like George Bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses.
Mr. JENNER. A large number of dresses?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About a hundred dresses.
When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in Fort Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to dresses and clothing, what other things?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I remember. She had a baby carriage.
I think George Bouhe gave it to her. Toys for the baby. Many things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you say .you carried her out and took her to the Mellers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. This was already possibly 2 weeks after we met them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the occasion that you did that, and why did you do it?
That was a pretty forward thing to do, was it not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. In the meantime, Lee lost his job and George Bouhe told him that he should move to Dallas, he will give him an introduction at the Texas Employment Agency--he knew somebody there. And eventually he got a job through that Texas Employment Agency. I don't remember the name of the person who was there some Texas lady whom George Bouhe knew.
And I told him that I would help him, too, to find a job, and even spoke to Sam Ballen about it, can he give him a job. And that is probably the only time that Sam Ballen met Oswald. I told him to go to Mr. Ballen's office---he has a reproduction business, a very large one in Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Reproduction?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Reproduction, electric log reproduction service. When they reproduce electrical logs from the oil wells. And also, they print catalogs and things like that in his office. It is quite a large business that he has--with branch offices all over Texas, and even in Denver, Colorado.
I said, "Why don't you see if you can give him a job?" And I remember that Sam saw Lee Oswald and found him very interesting.
I remember I saw him the next day and said, "How did you like Lee Oswald?" and he said, "Nice fellow, very nice fellow, very interesting fellow."
Mr. JENNER. But he did not have any work for him?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't have a job for him. And at the same time he received a job at some other outfit--I forgot the name of it--the traffic outfit, and they moved from Fort Worth to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You said you entered and took Marina out of the house, and the baby?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was a little bit later on--when he already moved to Dallas, he already had the job. But now I am trying to recall who moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas, and I think that was Gary Taylor, my ex-son-in-law, and Alex, my daughter. I think they both drove to Fort Worth.
I told them to do so--"Go to Fort Worth and help them, they have no car, they have no money--help them to move."
I think in the meantime Lee found a job at Jaggars, and was looking for a place to live, and found a place to live himself in Oak Cliff, this address which I don't remember now--the first address in Oak Cliff. He had two addresses. I forget the exact address. My wife will remember that.
Anyway, my daughter and her husband went there and moved them.
Mr. JENNER. When was this?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, maybe 2 weeks after we met the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. September of 1962?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About that time about September.
A little before that, I think, because in September we started the campaign on the cystic fibrosis, and we completely lost track of them--we were very busy on that. And I think it was in September that this campaign started.
Mr. JENNER. And before you started your campaign on cystic fibrosis, they had already moved to Dallas?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They already moved to Dallas. We already had moved them--had taken Marina away from her husband. And she already had returned back to her husband.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you say you had already taken Marina away from her husband. Tell us how that occurred.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the meantime, George Bouhe became completely disgusted with Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because I don't know exactly why--because he liked Marina very much.
Mr. JENNER. Bouhe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Bouhe he is an elderly man.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, I appreciate that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He wanted--almost like a daughter, you see. To him she was a poor girl whose father was an ex-officer, and she needed help. And he really gave. her money. He would give her $30, $40, I think, all at once.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever collect money from you and others to contribute?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Lee Oswald any money?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give Marina any money?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Not as far as I remember. Maybe a dollar--maybe 50 cents, something like that, for a bus. But never any money. I was in very difficult financial condition myself at that time. I don't think I gave her even 50 cents.
Sometimes we would invite them to eat a little bit, you see, in the house.
Mr. JENNER. You invited them to your home to eat?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think maybe once or twice they came to the house to eat.
Mr. JENNER. Your home on Dickens Street?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of how we took her away?
Mr. JENNER. And why.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe, started telling me that "George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous."
And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak Cliff, because, I didn't move them---it was my daughter who moved them, I think.
So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee, "Listen, you cannot do things like this."
Mr. JENNER. Was he home at this time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a little later.
Mr. JENNER. While you were still there, he appeared?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you observed that she had a black eye?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire about it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "He has been beating me." As if it was normal--not particularly appalled by this fact, but "He has been beating me", but she said "I fight him back also."
So I said, "You cannot stand for that. You shouldn't let him beat you."
And she said, "Well, I guess I should get away from him."
Now, I do not recall what actually made me take her away from Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt. there has to be something.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I know.
I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had then in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do things like that, and he said, "It is my business"--that is one of the few times that he was a little bit uppity with me.
And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection.
Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe I called them. I don't remember exactly.
Anyway, they were ready to receive her.
And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her dresses and I will break all the baby things."
And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some time, you better behave."
I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police."
I felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other people's affairs, after all.
Well, he said, "I will get even with you."
I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I said, "I am going to take Marina anyway."
So after a little while he started--and I started carrying the things out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual.
After a little while he helped. me to carry the things out. He completely changed his mind.
Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to carry things. And we cleaned that house completely.
We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded everything was taken out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee accompany you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that was it. The next day or a few days later--I don't remember exactly when--George Bouhe called me and said, "George, you should not give Lee the address of where Marina is." I think he came to see me about that--"because he is a dangerous character, and he has been threatening me, and he had been threatening Marina on the telephone."
Mr. JENNER. He knew where Marina was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe I am confused a little bit. He knew George Bouhe's telephone number. He had been threatening him, and wanted to know the telephone number or the address of where Marina was. And this time my wife and I said we do not have the right not to let him know where she is, because she is his wife, and we should tell him where Marina is.
Now, I do not recall how it happened--maybe Lee came over to our apartment in the evening. Anyway, we gave him the address of the Mellers, you see, and told him that the best way for him to do is to call ahead of time if he wants to see Marina, talk to her on the telephone, and if she wants to see him, she will see him. And he was very happy about that--because I thought it was a fair thing for the fellow to do.
I repeat again---I liked the fellow, and I pitied him all the time. And this--- if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take my wife away, and all the furniture, I would be mad as hell, too. I am surprised that he didn't do something worse.
I would not do it to anybody else. I just didn't consider him a dangerous person. I would not do it to somebody else.
Well, anyway, later on--this is from hearsay again, now---Marina moved to Declan Ford's house, because I think the Mellers got tired of her, and then she moved eventually to somebody else's house the name you mentioned here before a Russian girl who married an American--Thomas something.
Mr. JENNER. Ray?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ray. She moved to Ray's house, and then----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You took her to the Mellers?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she went from the Mellers to the Halls?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not remember any more. I do not recall that. I thought she moved from the Mellers to Mrs. Ford, and from Mrs. Ford to the house of the Rays.
What I recall now is that she had moved before to Mrs. Hall's house.
Mr. JENNER. You learned that she had already been at Mrs. Hall's home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that is in my mind--that she had already tried to go away from Lee, and stayed with Mrs. Hall. But I am not 100 percent sure.
I know that for the second time she was at Mrs. Hall's house, a little bit later.
Mr. JENNER. What was your understanding of the difficulties they were having?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Why was he physically beating her?
The difficulties were this: She was---just incompatibility. They were annoying each other, and she was all the time annoying him. Having had many wives, I could see his point of view. She was annoying him all the time "Why don't you make some money?", why don't they have a car, why don't they have more dresses, look at everybody else living so well, and they are just miserable flunkeys. She was annoying him all the time. Poor guy was going out of his mind.
Mr. JENNER. And you and your wife were aware of this, were you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And had discussed it
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We told her she should not annoy him--poor guy, he is doing his best,. "Don't annoy him so much." And I think I mentioned before one annoying thing. She openly said he didn't see her physically--right in front of him. She said, "He sleeps with me just once a month, and I never get any satisfaction out of it." A rather crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative strangers, as we were.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't blame Lee for giving her a good whack on the eye. Once it was all right. But he also exaggerated. I think the discussions were purely on that basis--purely on a material basis, and on a sexual basis, those two things--which are pretty important.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In politics they agreed more or less. She they were both somewhat dissatisfied with life in Soviet Russia. I had that impression. They wanted a richer life. And as far as I remember, it was Marina who convinced Oswald to leave Soviet Russia, and go back to the United States.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a definite recollection of that. I do not recall in exact words how it was said. But either one of them told me that---that it was Marina who wanted to come to the States, and made him go to the---back to the United States Embassy, and ask for his passport. And I remember very distinctly what he told me, that he illegally took a train from Minsk to Moscow, because being a foreigner, he was not supposed to leave town without notifying the police. He did that illegally, and went to Moscow, and presented himself at the United States Embassy.
Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention, or did he ever say to you that--even before he was married, that he had determined to return to the United States, and had taken some steps to do so?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall any of that.
Mr. JENNER. Your distinct recollection, however, is that she did tell you that she desired to come to the United States, and she pressed him to do so?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and possibly he was disgusted by that time also, because he was the fellow who needed attention, he was a new fellow in Minsk, a new American, so they were all interested in him. And then they lost interest in him eventually. So he became nothing. again. So he got disgusted with it. And Marina told him, "Let's go back to the States, and you take me to the States." Now, what is not clear to me--and I never inquired into it, because I was not particularly interested--how she got the permission from the Soviet Government to leave. That I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You never discussed that with her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed that. Somehow I was not interested to ask her that question. I should have, possibly.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him about it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never asked him this question.

Testimony Of George S. De Mohrenschildt Resumed

The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
(Having been previously duly sworn.)

Mr. JENNER. On the record.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you testified yesterday it was your then recollection that Marina did not live with your daughter, Alexandria, then Mrs. Gary Taylor.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right. I think she spent one night with them, but never lived with them, as far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe that's it. Now, perhaps to refresh your recollection, Marina testified--this question was put to her. "Did you have anything to do with the Gary Taylors?" "Answer: Yes; at one time when I had to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days."
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She probably is right. I think she spent only one day. But I could not swear to that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I want to stimulate your recollection in another respect. Your daughter has made a statement that in September of 1962, "My father asked me to allow Marina Oswald and her child to reside with me at my then home at 1512 Fairmont Street, Dallas. My father explained that Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina had recently arrived in Dallas, Tex. They had no money and Lee Oswald was unemployed. He told me that while Marina resided with me, Lee Oswald would reside at the YMCA." Does that serve to refresh your recollection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I frankly do not remember. I have the impression that I said "Help her as much as you can," but I do not recall saying that she would live with them. I do not think I would have imposed that on my daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that testimony of Marina that she did live with your daughter for several days, and your daughter's statement, does not----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not know about it. Maybe they did, maybe they did not I just do not recall that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I repeat again that they were out of my mind--completely--after the last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. Well, this is September of 1962.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 1962, sure. They were out of my mind. I forgot the Oswalds.
Mr. JENNER. No; 1962, sir.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no. Now the Oswalds were out of my mind.
Mr. JENNER. You mean you have not been thinking about them.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have not been thinking about them.
May I say a few things here that I remember? As I told you before, we met the Oswalds through Bouhe, and then we talked about them to Max Clark, and again to Bouhe. And I asked Mr. Bouhe "Do you think it is safe for us to help Oswald?"
Mr. JENNER. You did have that conversation.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you raise that question?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I raised the question because he had been to Soviet Russia. He could be anything, you see. And he could be right there watched day and night by the FBI. I did not want to get involved, you see. And I distinctly remember, No. 1, that George Bouhe said that he had checked with the FBI. Secondly, that in my mind Max Clark was in some way connected with the FBI, because he was chief of security at Convair--he had been a chief of security. And either George Bouhe or someone else told me that he is with the FBI to some extent. You never ask people "Are you from the FBI?" And to me it is unimportant. But somehow in my mind I had this connected. And so my fears were alleviated, you see. I said, "Well, the guy seems to be OK." Now, I am not so clear about it, but I have the impression to have talked--to have asked about Lee Oswald also Mr. Moore, Walter Moore.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Walter Moore?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Walter Moore is the man who interviewed me on behalf of the Government after I came back from Yugoslavia---G. Walter Moore. He is a Government man---either FBI or Central Intelligence. A very nice fellow, exceedingly intelligent who is, as far as I know--was some sort of an FBI man in Dallas. Many people consider him head of FBI in Dallas. Now, I don't know. Who does--you see. But he is a Government man in some capacity. He interviewed me and took my deposition on my stay in Yugoslavia, what I thought about the political situation there. And we became quite friendly after that. We saw each other from time to time, had lunch. There was a mutual interest there, ,because I think he was born in China and my wife was born in China. They had been to our house I think once or twice. I just found him a very interesting person. When I was writing this book of mine, a very peculiar incident occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Which book?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The last one the travelogue. One day we left for Houston on a business trip, and I left all my typewritten pages, some 150 typewritten pages, in my closet. When I returned from the trip and started looking through the pages, which had not been touched, supposedly, by anybody I noticed small marks on the pages--"No. 1" after five pages, "2"--small marks with a pencil, another five pages, No. 3, and so on and so forth.
I told my wife "Jeanne, have you fiddled around with my book?" She said, "Of course not." I said, "That's impossible." And I forgot it for a while.
In the evening we got back home, and we stayed in bed, and all of a sudden the idea came back to me that somebody must have been in my apartment and checked my book and read through that and took photographs. And it was such a horrible idea that Jeanne and I just could not sleep all night. And the next morning we both of us went to see Walter Moore and told him, "Now, look what happened to us. Have you Government people"--and I think I asked him point blank, you know--"Have you FBI people looked through my book?" He said, "Do you consider us such fools as to leave marks on your book if we had? But we haven't." I said, "Can't you give me some protection against somebody who has?" He said, "Do you have any strong enemies?" I said, "Well, I possibly have. Everybody has enemies." But I never could figure out who it was. And it is still a mystery to me.
So I am not so sure whether I asked point blank Clark or Walter Moore about Oswald. I probably spoke to both of them about him. My recollection is, and also my wife's recollection is, that either of them said he is a harmless lunatic. Later on Max got disgusted with him and said that he is a no-good b - - - - - d, a traitor, and so on and so forth. But by that time we already forgot Oswald--got Oswald out of your lives, you see. This is one point.
The second point is as you can see the whole of the Russian colony in Dallas were interested in Oswald one way or the other, because they represented somebody who had been to their old country just recently, and could give them the latest information on what was going on. As I said, the old guard were naturally against them right away. The others were just curious. But this particular couple, Natasha and Igor Voshinin, refused to see them. And I insisted several times, "Why don't you see them? You love all the Russians. Why don't you meet Marina Oswald?" And she said, "We don't want to, and we have our reasons for not meeting them." And it kept on in my mind. I did not want to raise that question. But why didn't they want to meet them?
Mr. JENNER. Well, tell me what is your speculation as to why they did not want to meet them?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not have the slightest idea. Maybe they knew something about Oswald, of some connection.
Mr. JENNER. Or maybe they were alarmed, and didn't want to take any chances.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe just that.
Mr. JENNER. But they were pretty firm in not having any traffic with them.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely firm. The only ones. Maybe they were just more recently arrived in the United States and they were not so secure like we were, you see. And possibly they were just alarmed of meeting somebody who just came from Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you at this point, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you are a man of very superior education and extremely wide experience and acquaintance here and in Europe, South America, West Indies--you have lived an extremely colorful life. You are acquainted to a greater or lesser degree with a great variety of people.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did there go through your mind speculations as to whether Oswald was an agent of anybody?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Why? Before I put it that way--when you say "No," am correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you concluded he was not an agent of anybody? Is that what you meant?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never thought even about it. I will tell you why I thought he never was--because he was too outspoken. He was too outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really--if he were an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea.
Mr. JENNER. You say he was outspoken. What do you base that on?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. For instance, he showed me his--he discussed very freely with me, when he showed me his little memoirs.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you those papers in a little while.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Those memoirs I think are very sincere. They explain more or less the sincere attitude of a man, sincere opinion of a man.
Mr. JENNER. Before I show you any papers, I want you to finish this reasoning of yours.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not take him seriously--that is all.
Mr. JENNER. I know you didn't. Why didn't you?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----
Mr. JENNER. You are a highly sophisticated person.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was not sophisticated, you see. He was a semieducated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously. All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was rather sincere.

Mr. JENNER. Opinion sincerely held, but crude?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He was relatively uneducated.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Quite, as a matter of fact--he never finished high school.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I did not even know that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were shallow and surface?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so.
Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views on the subject?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to impress one.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think he understood it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not understand the words--he just used them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had, for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping for something.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of reliability---that is, whether our Government would entrust him with something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never would believe that any government would be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important.
Mr. JENNER. Give me the basis of your opinion.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, again, as I said, an unstable individual, mixed-up individual, uneducated individual, without background. What government would give him any confidential work? No government would. Even the government of Ghana would not give him any job of any type.
Mr. JENNER. You used the expression "unstable." Would you elaborate on that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, instability--his life is an example of his instability. He switched allegiance from one country to another, and then back again, disappointed in this, disappointed in that, tried various jobs. But he did it, you see, without the enjoyment of adventure like some other people would do in the United States, a new job is a new adventure, new opportunities. For him it was a gruesome deal. He hated his jobs. He switched all the time.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let's assume he switched jobs because he was discharged from those jobs. Does that affect your opinion? That is, assume now for the purpose of discussion that he lost every one of his jobs.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, frankly, if I--you always base your opinion on your own experience. If I had my own country since my childbirth, and my government, I would remain faithful to it for the rest of my life. He had a chance to be a marine. Here was a perfect life for him--this was my point of view. He was a man without education, in the Marines--why didn't he stay in the Marines all his life? You don't need a high degree of intelligence to be a marine corporal or a soldier.
Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your thought----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my idea.
Mr. JENNER. That if he had an objective that he could have had, it would be to stay in the Marines and become a marine officer, and have a career in the Marines.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. Well, instead of that he disliked it and switched to something else. I do not know the details of all his jobs, you see, .but I certainly can evaluate people just by looking at them--because I have met so many people in my profession--you have to evaluate them by just looking at them and saying a few words.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression of him, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, as to his reliability in a different sense now--that is, whether he was reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack of control of himself?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was that. The fact that we took his wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and his threats to his wife.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of threats?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that he will beat the bell out of her. I think Marina told me that he threatened to kill her. It comes back to my mind, you see. You asked me yesterday a question, what actually precipitated us taking Marina and the little child away from Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You actually took Marina and the child away?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. So what actually precipitated that? Something must have precipitated it. I cannot recall what it was. But now I seem to vaguely remember that Marina said that he would kill her, that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. So that is the reason we went out there and said--well, let's save that poor woman.
Mr. JENNER. Where were they living then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were living then at the first address in Oak Cliff--Ruth Street, I think. It is a two-story brick building.
Mr. JENNER. Mercedes?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Street. I do not remember Mercedes Street.
Mr. JENNER. Elsbeth?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Elsbeth--yes.
Mr. JENNER. He never lived on any street by the name of Ruth.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Yesterday you adverted, I thought, to a concept that this man seemed--he responded when you would bring him into a conversation or situation.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That he was somewhat egocentric in that respect?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. And that is probably the reason that he was clinging to me. He was clinging to me. He would call me. He would try to be next to me--because, let's face it, I am a promotor and a salesman. So I know how to talk with people. I usually do not offend people's feelings. When I talk to people, I am interested in them. And he appreciated that in me. The other people considered him, well, he is just some poor, miserable guy, and disregarded him.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I Would like to go into that a moment. It gradually developed, did it, that the people in the Russian colony, their curiosity--they had curiosity at the outset, and they had interest at the outset.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. They met him at your home and other homes?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you now suggest that after a while their interest in him waned?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It disappeared mainly; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was it replaced by something else?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Dislike, mostly dislike, and fear.
Mr. JENNER. What was the fear?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Especially on the part of a scary individual, like George Bouhe---he was actually physically afraid of him.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe. He was actually physically afraid of him. He told me, "I am scared of this man. He is a lunatic." I said, "Don't be scared of him. He is just as small as you are."
Mr. JENNER. Yes, but George Bouhe is a small man. You are a well-built, athletic, six foot-one. What did you weigh then?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. 185 pounds. I was not afraid of him, naturally, but George Bouhe was.
Mr. JENNER. And that is not your nature, anyhow, that is not your personality as I observe you testifying.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was that way, you know. Now, Max Clark naturally was not afraid of him because Max Clark himself is an athlete, an ex-colonel in the Air Force, I think. He just disliked him, and he said to hell with that fellow, because Lee was rude to him.
Mr. JENNER. Who was rude?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee Oswald was rude to Max Clark and to his wife. They invited him on some occasion--this I remember vaguely--they invited him at some occasion to come to their house. And Lee said, "Well, I will come if it is convenient to me." Imagine that--an answer of that type.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the Clarks, certainly Mr. Clark--I do not know too much about Mrs. Clark--but Mr. Clark is an educated man.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very educated man.
Mr. JENNER. And a man of attainment. He is an attorney, is he not?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively uneducated, of limited capacity--I think this man had intelligence----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Being invited to the home socially of a man of capacity?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service record. What was your reaction to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, Max invited him purely because his wife was Russian and she would like to speak Russian once in a while.
Mr. JENNER. You think Lee resented that, do you--that the interest was in Marina and not in Lee Oswald?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; definitely. Oh, that is an exceedingly important point, you know. Lee resented the interest that people would take in Marina. He wanted the interest concentrated on himself.
Mr. JENNER. And did he exhibit that in your home and at other gatherings where you saw him? Did he interrupt so that the attention might be drawn to him and away from her?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he was not----
Mr. JENNER. I do not want to put the words in your mouth.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I understand what you mean. I am trying to think of a particular case that I would remember. I do not remember any particular case, but I always took him and considered him as an egocentric person. I do not remember any particular incident, but I knew that he wanted the attention to himself, always. Not in any particular case, but always. And he would rather disregard what Marina would say. And this is possibly the reason for his not wanting to--for Marina to learn English, so she would stay completely in the background.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you opened that subject which I want to inquire of you about. Did you people in the Russian colony--did you consider that? Did you regard that as unusual?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Right from the very first day my wife told Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on its" We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English, and they obviously still have those records.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, they were found in Mrs. Paine's home.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We even gave them a phonograph, I think, a cheap phonograph, to play the records.
Mr. JENNER. You gave them records?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You also gave them an instrument to play them on?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A cheap phonograph, to play those records.
Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall giving them--dresses?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not---
Mr. JENNER. Toys for the baby?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Toys for the baby, definitely. And I am sure that my wife had given some dresses. But she will remember better than I do. But we never gave them one cent of money. This I recall--never--and Lee would not take money, you see. I might have given him a little bit if he had asked. But he was very proud about it. He resented when people gave something to Marina. Marina would take anything, you see---she would take anything from 5a2 up to anything. And the more the better. But Lee did not want to take anything. He had a very proud attitude. That is one of the reasons I sort of liked him, because of that. He was not a beggar, not a sponger.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice over the period of time you knew him developments of resentment on his part of, say, these people in the Russian colony who had come here and had established themselves to a greater or lesser degree?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a very strong resentment on his part. It was almost an insane jealousy of people who succeeded where he could not succeed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him on that? How did you acquire this feeling?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was again through my understanding of human nature, rather than from direct conversation. From hearsay, rather. You see, No. 1, for instance, the fact that he was so rude to the Clarks, because they lived very well. It is an insult in his face, the house that the Clarke have---very luxurious home, two cars, and so on and so forth. It is a slap in his face. This same thing that George Bouhe, a refugee, would give Marina $30 or $40 or a new baby crib, like that, like nothing. That was a slap in his face. The fact that I had a new convertible was a slap in his face. But he was not stupid enough just to say so. But you can feel that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it might have been---
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And maybe George Bouhe, unfortunately annoyed him unintentionally with that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that might be possible. George Bouhe my impression of him is that he is a direct man.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. George Bouhe's intention was to take Marina away from Oswald very soon--not for himself, but to liberate her from Oswald. That is a fact.
Mr. JENNER. You had discussions with George Bouhe?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he said, "We have to take this girl away from him," and this is one of the things that prompted us to take Marina and the child away from Oswald. We discussed all that with George Bouhe---to make her a little bit happier--maybe she will make another life for herself, and especially for the baby. I had lost my child, you know, just a year and a half before, or 2 years before. I am fond of babies. I wanted this baby to be happy and have some sort of a future.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with Oswald this subject of Marina acquiring a greater facility in the command of the English language?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He said, "I don't want her to study English because I want to speak Russian to her, I will forget my Russian if I do not practice it every day." These are the words which I remember distinctly. And how many times I told him, "You have to let your wife learn English. This is a very egotistical attitude on your part."
Mr. JENNER. Very selfish.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very selfish. He would not answer to that.
Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you as a possibility, or among others in the Russian colony, that he might have had another objective, and that is that she would return to Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. That never occurred to me. I do not think that. Knowing Marina, she would never go back to Russia. She liked the United States. She liked the facilities of life here. Of course, you never know people. You cannot vouch for them. But that was our opinion. Maybe we simplified too much the matters. I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time in the spring or the midwinter of 1963, latter part of January, and in February, in which there was any discussion, or you learned that Marina had made application to the Russian Embassy to return to Russia?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion of that.
Mr. JENNER. And except for my now uttering it, you have been wholly unaware of it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Wholly unaware of it. Totally unaware of that, never heard of that. What we learned, at that period---that she had her child christened in the Greek Orthodox Church against Oswald's strong objections.
Mr. JENNER. Were you personally aware of those objections?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I just heard that he objected to Marina doing it--and she took the child to church anyway and had the child christened. But I do not recall the circumstances. Somebody told me that.
Mr. JENNER. But you are unaware of any discussion of her returning to Russia in the spring or late winter of 1962--1963, that winter?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. And she never appealed to you that he was forcing her to make application to the Russian Embassy?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall anything of that kind.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in that Russian colony, that community, that. Oswald reached a point where he resented all the people other than you; that he had a liking for you.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I explained to you that I do not know whether he had a liking or not.
Mr. JENNER. Or respect, or something.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I treated him nicely. My wife treated them like human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. Because that is our way of treating poor people. My philosophy is--you may object to that--but my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice to the poor---as nice as I can. And they were very miserable, lost, penniless, mixed up. So as much as they both annoyed me, I did not show it to them because it is like insulting a beggar--you see what I mean.

Well, the other Russians obviously do not have such a charitable attitude. I do not think he has ever been, for instance--I am trying to think whether he had a resentment against all of the Russian colony or not. I would not say so. I do not know how was his attitude toward Mr. Gregory. I think they remained pretty--not close, but on speaking term's.
Mr. JENNER. That seems to be so.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because Mr. Gregory is a very fine person--very fine person, who is an elderly man, who is nice to a poor person.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression is that he, to use the vernacular a little bit--he was sort of eating on himself, he wanted to amount to something, and he appeared to be unable to, and was constantly groping.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is his main--his makeup---trying to do something. One conversation I had with him--I asked him "Would you like to be a commissar in the United States," just teasing him. And he said--he sort of smiled--you could see that it was a delightful idea. To me it was a ridiculous question to ask. But he took me seriously. I laughed with the guy. Sometimes I would laugh, I would tease him. And it was amusing. But I tried not to offend him, because, after all, he was a human being. And in addition to that--in my case we had a point of contact which was the fact that he lived in Minsk, where I lived when I was a child also, where my father was this marshal of nobility. And later on in life I lived in Poland, very close to that area, I was interested in how the peasants were getting along, what does he find in the forest there, what kind of mushrooms you find, that type of conversation went on sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to have knowledge and recollection of things in which you were interested in the community, the countryside?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. That was a likable characteristic he had. For instance, he liked animals. My dog was sort of friendly with him. When he would come, my dog would not bark. He liked walking. He told me that around Minsk he used to take long walks in the forest which I thought was very fine. Those are contacts that possibly brought a certain understanding between us. He spoke very interestingly about the personalties of fellow workers there at his factory.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to keep ruminating in this fashion, because these things will come to you. What did he say about his work there?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he said that the work was all right, not too hard, not too well paid, that it was very boring. That later, after the work, he had to be present at all sorts of meetings, political meetings. He said he got bored to death. Every day he had to stay for an hour at some kind of a meeting, the factory meeting. And this is a thing I thought was very intelligent because that is one of the points that is really hateful in a Communist country---the meetings after work. That I noticed through my own experience in Yugoslavia, that the engineers and the plain workers just hated that--a political meeting after working 8 hours. And Lee Oswald also resented that in Russia. And I thought it was a rather intelligent---one of the intelligent remarks that he made. And he repeated that very often--that is the thing he hated in Russia; resented, rather than hated.
Well, he described the personalities of some of the people that he knew there which I do not recall anymore. But some of them nice, and some of them less nice, and some of them very much interested in the United States, some of them unfriendly--that sort of vague recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did you engage him in conversation respecting Communism as a political ideal and his reactions to that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist. I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist." Kept on repeating it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what he meant by that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just the sound of that word is boring to me.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that connection as to whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and what he thought Communism was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly he was seeking for something, but knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero.
Mr. JENNER. I see. It was your impression, then he could contribute nothing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing except for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary remark a person of his intelligence could understand. But when it comes to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again.
Mr. JENNER. Did discussions occur as to his attempted defection?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. From the United States to Russia?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. How it happened?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Why it happened and how it happened?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A few words I remember now. He said that while he was in Japan he saw tremendous injustice. By that he meant, I think, the poverty of the Japanese working class or the proletariat, as he called them, and the rich people in Japan. He said it was more visible than anywhere else. Now, I have never been in Japan, and I cannot vouch for that. But that is what he told me. And he also told me that he had some contacts with the Japanese Communists in Japan, and they--that got him interested to go and see what goes on in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. Just concentrate on this, please. Tell me everything you can now recall as to what he said about--you used the term, what we lawyers call a conclusion. You said he had some contacts with the Communists in Japan Now, try and recall what he said or as near----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I see what you mean.
Since it was so removed from my interest, I did not insist. I just heard that.
Mr. JENNER. Just give me your best recollection.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all I recall--that he said, "I have met some Communists in Japan and they got me excited and interested, and that was one of my inducements in going to Soviet Russia, to see what goes on there."
Mr. JENNER. Did you form any opinion that this man, because of his meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his youth and up to the time he went into the Marines at least, that he had some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of thing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Naturally. That's the whole point. I could understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in the whole world with dissatisfied people. If they are constructive, they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. The other try to form a revolutionary party. And he was one of them.
Mr. JENNER. The other try to do it overnight, by force of arms.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men and women who have come from poverty?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. You could not discuss it with Oswald because he knew it all.
Mr. JENNER. He always knew what the answer was.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He always knew what the answer was. And possibly that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. After we found out what was going on in that town of Minsk, what was the situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned. The rest of the time, the few times we saw Lee Oswald and Marina afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because we thought they were dying of boredom, you see---which Marina was.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She was, because he never would take her any place. That was the reason we invited them twice once to a party at Declan Ford's--and that was, I think, a Christmas party. And another time a party at Everett Glover's, where I was showing my movie to the whole group. Because I thought they would be exceedingly--Marina was dying of boredom there.
Mr. JENNER. Let me get to that party at Declan Ford's. That was--was that a New Year's Day or New Year's Eve party?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was right at Christmas or New Year's Eve.
Mr. JENNER. The party went on for a couple of days, didn't it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A couple of days?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know that the party ran for a couple of days. But we arrived at 9 o'clock and left around 1 or 2, and it was still going strong.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of one day and did not end until well into the next day.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was not any of those wild parties. It was a very friendly, very good party.
Mr. JENNER. I'm not suggesting the party was wild. There is no intimation of that.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No on the contrary, they are very hospitable people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. And that is why we suggested, let's bring that miserable Marina and Oswald there, so they would meet some people. And I think if people continued doing that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Or it might have become worse his resentment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question. She loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade her to smoke. This is the reason---one of the reasons they fought so bitterly--because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap her.
Mr. JENNER. In your presence?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In my presence, would take the cigarette away from her and push her, "You are not going to do that", in a dictatorial way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our presence when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl.
Mr. JENNER. What about his drinking?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as I remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy was always under some kind of pressure.
Mr. JENNER. You have that impression?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; always some kind of a pressure.
Mr. JENNER. And this was an inward pressure, you thought?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; some inward pressure.
Mr. JENNER. See if I can refresh your recollection a little about that party, the first of the parties. I am going to ask you about the second one as well in a moment.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember being present at that party Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. If they are the people whom I identify as he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of Russian origin--a friend of Mrs. Ford.
Mr. JENNER. He married her when he was in Germany.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that's it--something like that. You know, in this group of the Russian emigres, there were two people who came from Soviet Russia--there were Mrs. Ford and this lady, an entirely different type of individual---the new blood. They were younger and they were brought up in Soviet Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; they were people----
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were so-called--what do you call--- displaced persons, who were grabbed by the Germans and displaced in Germany, and then the American soldiers grabbed them and married them. Both of them were the same type. Very nice people, but they had a different background.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this party occurred on the 28th and 29th of December.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as I remember, it was around New Year's Day.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I recall this person. grayish hair.
Mr. JENNER. From Georg