TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD GIBSON

The testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson was taken at 11 a.m., on May 28, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel, and Richard M. Mosk, member of the staff of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be sworn?
Mrs. Gibson, in the testimony you are about to give on your deposition do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs. GIBSON. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Be seated, please. You are Mrs. Donald Gibson?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You are the former Alexandra De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were at one time married to Mr. Gary Taylor, of Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You now live in Wingdale, N.Y.?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is your address in Wingdale?
Mrs. GIBSON. Harlem Valley State Hospital, Building 28, Wingdale, N.Y.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you are employed at the hospital?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is a State mental institution?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is your husband also employed there?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.

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Mr. JENNER. Our information is that you were born on Christmas Day 1943?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. That was here in the United States?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. New York, to be exact?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So that you are now 20 years of age and will be 21 next December?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your father is George Sergei De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother is Jeanne Fomenko De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. F-o-m-e-n-k-o?
Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't know that.
Mr. JENNER. Also at one point in her life Jeanne Bogoiavlensky; is that correct?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; Bogoiavlensky.
Mr. JENNER. You were a resident of Dallas, Tex., in 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were then married to Gary Taylor?
Mrs. GIBSON, Yes.
Mr. JENNER, What was your address?
Mrs. GIBSON, 3519 Fairmount.
Mr. JENNER. You married Mr. Taylor at a very early age as I recall?
Mrs. GIBSON, Yes,
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. GIBSON. November 21, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. I don't care for the details, but after you married Mr. Taylor, you and he lived in various places in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of his employment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he did all sorts of things. He went to school at one time, to college.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; in Arlington. We lived in Arlington, too.
Mr. JENNER. What college was that?
Mrs. GIBSON. Arlington State. I can't recall all the jobs he did. I mean he did a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
Mr. JENNER. Let's get to 1962. What was he doing then?
Mrs. GIBSON. He was working off and on with a photographer, working on a movie, and driving a taxi part time. He also, he and this friend of his, Steve Moore, were trying to found this little company of landscaping. That didn't work out, so he still kept on his photography business.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his first name?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it is----
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his birthday?
Mrs. GIBSON. December 24, I think 1939.
Mr. JENNER. So he was older, 4 years older than you?
Mrs. GIBSON. He was 4 years older than me; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you were subsequently divorced?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You and Mr. Taylor. And when was that?
Mrs. GIBSON. Our divorce became final, I believe, the 15th of April of last year.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mrs. GIBSON. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. I take it there is a waiting period then?
Mrs. GIBSON. Three months.
Mr. JENNER. So the decree was entered the 15th of January?
Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know, I didn't enter it. I left Dallas and asked him to please divorce me,
Mr. JENNER. I see.

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Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't want to go through all the rigmarole of getting a divorce; no. I wanted to get out of Dallas right then.
Mr. JENNER. Were you living together as man and wife during all of the year 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. Until November, the last part of November of 1962; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you been separated prior to that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; in 1961, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a child?
Mrs. GIBSON. One child.
Mr. JENNER. Born of that marriage?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that child's name?
Mrs. GIBSON. Curtis Lee Taylor.
Mr. JENNER. When was that child born?
Mrs. GIBSON. February 10, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. While living at 3519 Fairmount in Dallas during the year 1962, did you become acquainted with a lady by the name of Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also become acquainted with a gentleman by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With whom did you become acquainted first?
Mrs. GIBSON. Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me when, as closely as you can fix it. Let me put it this way. Tell me first the circumstances under which you became acquainted, what led up to it and how it occurred, and then fix as closely as you can when in 1962 you did become acquainted.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, my stepmother and my father called me up.
Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother is Jeanne De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. GIBSON. Jeanne; and my father called me up one evening and asked me----
Mr. JENNER. At your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. At my apartment; and asked me if I would please take care of Marina Oswald's child while she went to the dentist, and could she stay overnight with me because she had two appointments in a row, one on one day and one the next day, and I said all right. And as for the date, I imagine you know it better than I do.
Mr. JENNER. I don't know anything better than you do.
Mrs. GIBSON. If you give me the date on the pads. I don't remember the dates at all.
Mr. JENNER. Was it the month of September?
Mrs. GIBSON. No. As I said, I thought it was before September.
Mr. JENNER. Before September?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about the weather?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was very hot, but I don't remember the month. It could have been----
Mr. JENNER. Could it have been in August?
Mrs. GIBSON. It could have been the later part of August. It seems to me that would be about right.
Mr. JENNER. Can you recall anything about what your father and/or your stepmother said to you in identifying these people? You were naturally curious as to who they were?
Mrs. GIBSON. They told me that they were recently, Marina and Lee were recently here from Russia, and hadn't been in Dallas very long, or Fort Worth, wherever they were staying, and that she had a child the same age as mine, and that my stepmother thought it would be very nice if we got acquainted. And she said Marina was around my age, and asked if I would please help them out since they didn't have any room in their apartment to keep her while she had these dental appointments.
Mr. JENNER. That is, they didn't have any room in the De Mohrenschildts' apartment?

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Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. From that conversation you became aware, had the impression that your father and your stepmother had had some prior acquaintance with these people?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think they just recently met them.
Mr. JENNER. That was the impression?
Mrs. GIBSON. That was the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what day of the week--that is, not the particular date as such, but was it a weekday, a Saturday, or a Sunday?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was a weekday. Whether it was in the beginning of the week or the middle or the end I don't remember, but it was a weekday.
Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they called me the night before, but it was in the early morning of the next day.
Mr. JENNER. That you met Marina?
Mrs. GIBSON. That I met Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina come alone?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; my stepmother brought her and the child.
Mr. JENNER. That was in the morning?
Mrs. GIBSON. In the morning; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Describe your apartment, will you please?
Mrs. GIBSON. How do you mean describe it?
Mr. JENNER. How many rooms, living room, bedroom, two bedrooms, kitchen, dinning room?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, there are five rooms, I guess, in all.
Mr. JENNER. And they consisted of?
Mrs. GIBSON. Living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom. There was a small adjoining room to the bedroom but it wouldn't be classified as a whole room.
Mr. JENNER. Sort of more of a dressing room?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose were you employing that room at that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. My child slept in that room.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you folks, that is yourself and your husband, normally sleep?
Mrs. GIBSON. We slept in the living room.
Mr. JENNER. That was your normal practice?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. So that the bedroom you mentioned was not occupied?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; it wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. It was not in use, rather, at the time that Marina stayed with you?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; it was used as a playroom really for my son Curtis.
Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother brought Marina and the baby to your home?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home at that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. That is it was at a time when he would have departed for work?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe he had already gone to work.
Mr. JENNER. You said that Marina was to receive some dental care?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did she remain in the apartment all day after she arrived?
Mrs. GIBSON. After she came back from the dentist, she stayed there, I think she had a tooth, one or two pulled, and she stayed there that afternoon, after she came back from the dentist.
Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother brought her and then your stepmother took her to the dentist?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. They returned?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That afternoon.
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.

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Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain and the baby remain with you overnight and into the next day?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did Marina and her child stay that evening?
Mrs. GIBSON. They slept in the bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't lodge her child, June, in the room in which your son Curtis was?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first meet Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it was on the evening of the first day that Marina stayed with me.
Mr. JENNER. Did someone bring him or did he come alone?
Mrs. GIBSON. As far as I know, he came alone.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to the place from which he had come?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know where he had come from.
Mr. JENNER. But he came alone?
Mrs. GIBSON. As far as I know; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina able to speak English?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; not a word.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any problems in that connection?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I got a little dictionary and tried to figure out a few words, but it was very hard to communicate with her.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your remark that you yourself are not fluent in Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you understand Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. A few words.
Mr. JENNER. Your father speaks Russian fluently, does he not?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he does.
Mr. JENNER. And your stepmother?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Despite their fluency in Russian, you never acquired any fluency? You just didn't acquire any familiarity with Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Except your understanding of a few words?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. In any event you are unable to speak it?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When Oswald came to your house that evening, did he speak English or Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. He spoke English to us and Russian to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. When he arrived, did he speak with his child?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what language did he speak with the child?
Mrs. GIBSON. Russian.
Mr. JENNER. That was not merely small talk? All of his conversation with his child was in Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. Some was small talk. You could tell that he was just playing around, and when he really talked to her, it was in Russian. Of course once in a while he'd lapse into English.
Mr. JENNER. You minded the child June while Marina was at the dentist?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And also the following day while she was at the dentist?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. How did you get along with the child?
Mrs. GIBSON. Not very well.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mrs. GIBSON. Pardon? I didn't understand you.
Mr. JENNER. You say you didn't get along very well with the child. State it more fully to me factually; what the problems were.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, the minute Marina left, the child would start to cry. She

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whimpered all the time. I couldn't feed her. Every time I got near her she'd scream. She never slept. She's a very difficult child to get along with. She was not at all affectionate to anybody else but to her own parents.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think she found it strange to have anyone speak to her in English as distinguished from Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know if it was the English. I don't believe she had ever been with anybody but her parents and I think that might have had a lot to do with it, plus she was very spoiled, very catered to by her mother and her father.
Mr. JENNER. There were subsequent occasions when you visited the Oswalds or they visited you or Marina visited you or you visited Marina?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Drawing on the whole span of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, rather than merely those first 2 days, did you ever hear Lee Oswald address his child other than in Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, like I said, sometimes he'd lapse into English. I imagine it was mainly for our benefit, more so than the child's. I mean normally he probably spoke to the child alone or when he was with Marina always in Russian. He never spoke English to her ever or even tried to teach her English, never attempted to.
Mr. JENNER. That is he never spoke to Marina other than in Russian, and as you say, he never tried to teach her English?
Mrs. GIBSON. He never tried to teach her English, never, not one word.
Mr. JENNER. Did that strike you and your husband Gary as a little out of the ordinary?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, we told him we thought that it was extremely stupid and we asked him why, and he said that he didn't want to lose his Russian. She, of course in Russia I believe she worked in a pharmacy. Wasn't she a pharmacist? And therefore we said to be able to get a license over here she would have to speak English, and it didn't seem to bother him. I think he didn't like the idea of her having more education than he did. I think he wanted her to remain solely dependent on him.
Mr. JENNER. During all the period that you and your husband were acquainted with the Oswalds, was there ever any discussion about either of them returning to Russia?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; he did not want to go back.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say that?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. He disliked Russia just like he disliked the United States.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of him? Was he looking for utopia?
Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say so. He didn't agree with communism and he didn't agree with capitalism. He had his own ideas completely on government.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please call on your recollection and tell us what you recall as to what his beliefs, political beliefs, were, as he expressed them?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I'd say that his beliefs were more socialistic than anything else. I mean he believed in the perfect government, free of want and need, and free of taxation, free of discrimination, free of any police force, the right to be able to do exactly what he pleased, exactly when he pleased, just total and complete freedom in everything.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk in terms of any obligation to this so-called perfect state?
Mrs. GIBSON. No. Actually I think he believed in no government whatsoever, just a perfect place where people lived happily all together and no religion, nothing of any sort, no ties and no holds to anything except himself.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss in that connection the necessity for making a contribution to that society; working himself? Or was this a utopia in which he was to be free to do what he pleased, work or not as he saw fit?
Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know if he planned to work or not. I don't know what Lee wanted to do in life. I think he wanted to be a very important person without putting anything into it at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of resentment on his part?
Mrs. GIBSON. He resented any type of authority. He expected to be the highest paid immediately, the best liked, the highest skilled. He resented any people in high places, any people of any authority in government or, oh, in let's say

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the police force or anything like that, or in your Army, Navy, Marines or whatever he was in.
Mr. JENNER. Were there discussions between your husband and him on these subjects?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; quite frequently. They argued a lot about it.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion--you say he wanted to be the highest paid, he wanted to be the leader and that sort of thing. Did your husband raise with him any necessity on his part to qualify himself for those positions and that high pay?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, my husband told him you can't be something for nothing. He said you can't expect to get high pay and receive a good position with no education and no ambition, no particular goal, no anything. Well, he just expected a lot for nothing.
Mr. JENNER. You have the impression that he was not an ambitious person, ambitious in the sense of willing to devote himself to an objective and work toward something?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted.
Mr. JENNER. As distinguished from just being given to him or falling in his lap?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted, and I don't think he was too interested in working toward anything. He expected things to be just given to him on a silver platter. But in his ideas, he was extremely devoted.
Mr. JENNER. He was devoted to his concepts?
Mrs. GIBSON. To his ideas as to how he thought. You couldn't change his mind no matter what you said to him.
Mr. JENNER. He was rigid in his views then?
Mrs. GIBSON. Very, very rigid in his ideas.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say about Russia during these periods when you had these discussions?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he said he was very disappointed in Russia. Russia was not what he thought it would be. It was not the ideal place, that Communism was not the ideal government, that he disliked Communism just as he disliked capitalism, that he disliked Russia very much.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you about his life in Russia? You were curious about it and your husband too, I assume?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he told us bits and pieces about it, and then of course he gave us a manuscript to read. He told us quite a bit about Russia, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what you recall as to what he said in that connection?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I can't recall any specific thing. I recall that he said he was quite sick over there; this didn't hold too well. He said he was treated with a little more deference than the next ordinary Russian person because he was American, that he had a terrific time leaving Russia, and that it scared him very much.
Mr. JENNER. You mean terrific in the sense of difficulty?
Mrs. GIBSON. A very difficult time. I think he said it took him a year to be able to get out of Russia. He almost didn't make it. It scared him very much. He was supposed to give over his citizenship and become a citizen of Russia to be able to work there, but he didn't do this, and he was still able to work there. He didn't know why exactly, but they allowed him to work there anyway. But they kept pressuring him to give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia, get working papers.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about that. Tell us everything you remember as to what he said about the fact that they pressured him to give up his citizenship so he could stay in Russia and work.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I don't know how you consider pressuring him. They kept suggesting that he should give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia; otherwise, why was he there? If he was there obviously he wanted to become a Russian. To be able to work in Russia you were supposed to be a Russian citizen. You had to give up your citizenship. And he kept objecting to this. I guess he was scared. He didn't really want to go as far as giving up his American citizenship.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his course of conduct when he first

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went to Russia, any attempted surrender by him of his citizenship at that time voluntarily?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't recall that he did say anything about voluntarily giving up his citizenship; no. He might have. I don't recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion as to how he met Marina; and their courtship and marriage?
Mrs. GIBSON. There was. I don't remember too much of it. I think he met her in Minsk. I believe he was working there at a factory that manufactured television chassis, and he met her, I don't know exactly how. I think he met her when he was sick in the hospital. I don't know what was wrong with him. And they I guess went out from there, and I guess, I don't know how long they went out, and they got married.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "went out" you meant began to date?
Mrs. GIBSON. Dating; yes. I don't know exactly what you do in Russia. And I think she wanted to come to the United States very badly.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, calling of course on your recollection of what was said which gave you these impressions? That is, what you learned from her or from conversations with him in her presence?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I guess this was rather hearsay. I think she told this to my stepmother in conversation, that she wanted very much to come to the United States to make a better life for herself, that she wasn't very much interested in politics, just in a better place to live. Supposedly this is the reason she married Lee.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression in any event?
Mrs. GIBSON. This is what I was told, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing occurred during the period of time that you had this acquaintanceship with the Oswalds that disabused you of that impression?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; and I wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of love lost between them.
Mr. JENNER. Between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. They quarreled quite a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiance, Alex--
Mr. JENNER. Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. I don't know his name.
Mr. JENNER. Describe him to us.
Mrs. GIBSON. Describe him?
Mr. JENNER. Physically.
Mrs. GIBSON. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of this occur in your presence?
Mrs. GIBSON. One afternoon he was telling Lee off very, very----
Mr. JENNER. Tell us where this occurred?
Mrs. GIBSON. This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. You were present?
Mrs. GIBSON. And my husband; we were both present.
Mr. JENNER. And who else please?
Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.
Mr. JENNER. And what response did he obtain from Lee?

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Mrs. GIBSON. Very sullen, very sharp answers. In fact I thought there was going to be a fight there for a minute.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee deny at that time in your presence, these accusations being uttered by Alexander Kleinlerer?
Mrs. GIBSON. He said it was none of his business.
Mr. JENNER. But he didn't deny that he had done this?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. He just said it was none of Kleinlerer's business?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Had either you or your husband ever--did either you or your husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; we never talked to him about beating his wife. We just talked to him about how he should teach her English, how it was very important for her to know English.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that that phase, that is the teaching of English to her, that sort of conversation occurred several times during your acquaintanceship with Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, yes; very often.
Mr. JENNER. And his response always was that he didn't want to lose----
Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't want to lose his Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything said by you or Gary that he could speak to her in Russian and she could speak with him in Russian but at the same time she could be taught English?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your husband Gary urged that alternative?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; we just gave up.
Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a gracious person, ungracious, was he rude, or was he not? Was he appreciative?
Mrs. GIBSON. He could be very, very rude. He appreciated absolutely nothing you did for him. He never thanked you for anything. He seemed to expect it of you.
Mr. JENNER. We are going to get into all that eventually, but you and your husband Gary were very helpful to him, reasonably so in any event. You did a number of things for him; did you not?
Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say we did a number of things for him that we didn't have to do, and we certainly didn't need to do, and we certainly didn't owe him anything. But we did try to help.
Mr. JENNER. Now in the face of all that, you say that at no time did he express any appreciation or thanks.
Mrs. GIBSON. I think the only time he ever said thank you was when we moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas. I think it was a very brief thank you, and that was that.
Mr. JENNER. But otherwise, he neither expressed nor did you feel any evidence of appreciation on his part for what you and your husband did?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I didn't feel anything. I fed his wife quite a few meals. He never offered me any reimbursement of any type for it. He never thanked me. He just seemed to act as if we owed it to him, and I felt that I didn't owe him a thing.
Mr. JENNER. What bout Marina on the other hand, in this connection?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think Marina was appreciative.
Mr. JENNER. Discounting the difficulty of communication?
Mrs. GIBSON. I had the feeling she was appreciative; yes. But she was exceedingly lazy. She would do nothing to help. The only thing she would do would be to take care of her child. She would do this, thank goodness, but otherwise she would do nothing to help. She wouldn't help with the dishes or clearing the table or preparing the meal, cleaning the apartment, anything pertaining to the extra work I had to do because she was there. Mrs. Hall had the same complaint.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Hall expressed this complaint to you?
Mrs. GIBSON. Exactly the same complaint; that Marina slept very late, which she didn't do in my apartment but she did there, that she did not help with the

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house, that she didn't do anything really; just sat around and took care of the baby.
Mr. JENNER. Over this period--let me fix the period of time. You first met them, your present recollection is, sometime the latter part of August 1962. When was the last time you saw either of the Oswald's?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when I returned a manuscript to Lee Oswald, it could have been either the end of November or the middle of December. I am not sure which.
Mr. JENNER. 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. 1962; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Over this period of approximately, let us say, 3 1/2 months in 1962, how many times did Marina stay in your home? You have given one occasion.
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been at least two or three, no more than that.
Mr. JENNER. Over that 3 1/2-month period, the Oswalds were in your home no more than two or three times that is on visits, one or the other of them?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; he was. She was only there one other time to visit. He popped in and out frequently. She was in Fort Worth at the time, and I didn't see her.
Mr. JENNER. Going back to this following or second day of Marina's visit in August, I take it your stepmother picked her up and took her to the dentist on the second day as well?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did she return to Fort Worth that day?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think she took a bus that afternoon to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Did she go to the bus station by herself or was she taken?
Mrs. GIBSON. My stepmother took her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn where the Oswalds were living or staying at that time ? That is, is this the first occasion that you met them?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well they must have been staying at that duplex.
Mr. JENNER. On Mercedes Street?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that is where they must have been staying.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in that home or apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I .was.
Mr. JENNER. When was the first occasion you were in that duplex?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was Sunday afternoon somewhere, it must have been about 2 weeks or more after I first met them. Gary and I went over to visit them in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Weekday or weekend?
Mrs. GIBSON. Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. On a Sunday. This was then in September of 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been early September or late August.
Mr. JENNER. This was a visit on your part?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Were they aware of the fact that you were going to visit them?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, was anyone there?
Mrs. GIBSON. I am not very clear on that point. It is possible that Lee's mother was just leaving. I am not sure. She was either just leaving or she had just left before we came. I don't remember. I am not too clear on if I met her passing as she was going out or if I didn't meet her.
Mr. JENNER. How did you know where they lived?
Mrs. GIBSON. Lee I believe--Lee gave us their address.
Mr. JENNER. On what occasion did he give you their address?
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been one of the times he stopped by, dropped in. I don't really know.
Mr. JENNER. I don't know as I asked you this. Did he visit at your home at anytime during those first 2 days that Marina stayed with you?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he came to visit the first evening.
Mr. JENNER. Had you expected him?
Mrs. GIBSON. I had thought that he might be coming. I believe she had told

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my stepmother that Lee was dropping by or my stepmother had told me. Somebody had said something.
Mr. JENNER. That was the first occasion on which you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he stay the evening and then leave?
Mrs. GIBSON. He stayed about an hour and then he left.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you notice with respect to the relations between Lee Oswald and Marina on that first occasion?
Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say they got along fairly well.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he was employed at that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't get any impression one way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression in that respect when you and your husband, Gary, visited them on the Sunday afternoon you have mentioned?
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe he talked about his employment, but I am not sure. He must have. They must have talked about it.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression was he was then working at some kind of employment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I mean it was just normal to assume. He had an apartment and a child and a wife. He must have been working.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any others than those you have mentioned who were at the apartment on that Sunday afternoon; you have mentioned the possibility of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother and, of course, there was Lee and the baby and Marina.
Mrs. GIBSON. Later on in the early evening some people came to visit, some of the Russian colony from Fort Worth and Dallas.
I don't recall the names. I think Mrs. Hall and Alex were there. Otherwise, there must have been four other people, four or five other people besides them.
Mr. JENNER. I will mention some names. Mamantov?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know that name.
Mr. JENNER. Meller?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with the name Meller, aren't you?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned Mrs. Hall and Kleinlerer.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As possibly having been there. Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is a possibility. The more I think about it, it is possible, but I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with or aware of the Clarks?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe I knew them.
Mr. JENNER. They were friends of your father and stepmother?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I am not positive that I knew them very well, but I have a feeling, the name rings a bell definitely.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the name George Bouhe?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there?
Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure, but the more I think about it, you asked me this question earlier, I think he was there. I think he was the extra man that was there.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get as to whether it had been expected that this group was to come by or did they just happen by?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think they just dropped in.
Mr. JENNER. Did they stay very long?
Mrs. GIBSON. I left before they left. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the conversation on that occasion?
Mrs. GIBSON. I couldn't really tell. A lot of it was in Russian. You couldn't tell what was going on.
Mr. JENNER. These were by and large Russian-speaking people?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Describe the apartment to me, will you please?

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Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, my. Well, it was rather nice. It was clean. There was a living room and a kitchen and a bedroom and a bath, hardwood floors, good paint. It was a duplex. A large backyard. The furniture was rundown but it was usable. All in all it was not a bad apartment.
Mr. JENNER. What impressions did you get of Lee Harvey Oswald throughout the 3 1/2-month period, as to his dress and his self-respect and care?
Mrs. GIBSON. He was not a very clean person. In fact, I'd say he wasn't clean at all. He seemed to wear the same shirt for week after week. Every time we saw him he had the same clothes on. Fairly clean-shaven, but otherwise he was definitely not a clean person in dress.
Mr. JENNER. And Marina on the other hand?
Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say she was fairly clean.
Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Oswald's attitude and his posture with respect to other people? Was he reasonably polite and respectful? How did he conduct himself in the presence of others?
Mrs. GIBSON. It would depend on who the people were. He could be very polite if he wished. He could be very sarcastic, very blunt if he wished. He could be a very friendly person if he wished, and he could be very quiet if he wished. It just depended on who the people were.
Mr. JENNER. Which was predominant?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, I don't know. It was really a mixture. He was easy, not too hard to get along with as far as we were concerned. We argued with him but it was always a friendly argument When I saw him with other people, he was as friendly, smiling, but with his wife he could be very quiet, very brooding. That is about all I can tell you.
Mr. JENNER. It has been said of him by some people that he was somewhat of an introvert, very quiet, not seeking the company of others.
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wouldn't say he would seek out company, but when they came or when he went to visit them or us, he was always very--he didn't seem to be introverted; no. He seemed to be quite friendly, quite extroverted, no trouble expressing himself. He didn't sit in silence for hours.
Mr. JENNER. What about his regard, his attitude toward others with respect to--that is did he let's take your father's folks, did he have respect for your father? Did he like him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he liked my father very much. He had a great deal of respect for him.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband Gary?
Mrs. GIBSON. I would imagine he did.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say Marina probably liked Gary more than Lee, though.
Mr. JENNER. Lee did visit at your home?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he did on occasion seek out your husband?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband occasionally sought out him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee express any views with respect to others in that milieux, that company, the Halls, the Mellers, the Clarks, Bouhe, the Voshinins, the Russian emigree colony?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he liked Mr. Bouhe very much and he expected a lot of him. I think he thought that Mr. Bouhe might be his key to getting a good job. Mrs. Hall now, he liked her, but he said she was a crude, coarse woman. I think maybe he really deeply didn't like her that well. Alex--what did you say his name was?
Mr. JENNER. Kleinlerer.
Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't like him at all, and the other people you mention, I imagine he has talked about them, but I can't place them, so I don't know his opinion on them.
Mr. JENNER. These people were trying to help, were they not?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; especially George Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. What was Lee's attitude toward that effort?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I don't know why they were trying to help him.

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He didn't deserve it. They didn't owe it to him. Yet he seemed to, I got the feeling he thought they did. Why, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the feeling at any time that he was contemptuous of any of them?
Mrs. GIBSON. When they didn't come up with something he wanted; yes. I'd say George Bouhe was the one that stuck by him the most, more than my father, more than any of them. Mrs. Hall got disgusted with the whole thing, and especially, well, with both of them really, a lot with Marina and a lot with Lee.
She got very disgusted with the whole situation. My father did, too. George Bouhe seemed to be the only one that sort of stuck by them.
Mr. JENNER. Why did your father become disgusted with them?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, just in general, with Lee's lack of being able to get a good job or being able to really stick with anything, his treatment of his wife, his treatment of his fellowmen, just his total indifference. My father just got very aggravated with the whole thing, got aggravated with Marina for taking Lee's abuse, and he just got fed up.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion when he either lost or quit his position in Fort Worth, isn't that so?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that----
Mrs. GIBSON. I imagine, I don't know if he lost it or if he quit. I believe he said he quit.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now that you have said that, the fact is that he did quit. Now, to help orient yourself, that occurred on the 8th of October 1962, which was, I think, a Tuesday but I will check on that to make sure. That was a Monday.
Now, between that Sunday afternoon which would be either late in August or some time in September, and the 8th of October, which was a Monday, when he left the Leslie Welding Co., had you seen the Oswalds?
Mrs. GIBSON. Between when?
Mr. JENNER. Between the Sunday that you visited them and the 8th of October.
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe we had. We might have. He might have popped in. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned----
Mrs. GIBSON. Is this before he stayed at the YMCA? This is before, isn't it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. To help you in that respect, he stayed at the YMCA October 15 through October 19, 1962.
Mrs. GIBSON. He might have popped in. I don't recall whether he did or not.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, from that Sunday to October 8, had Marina stayed with you?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. You do recall Lee Oswald being in Fort Worth at the YMCA, however, do you?
Mrs. GIBSON. In Fort Worth?
Mr. JENNER. I mean in Dallas.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; we took him there.
Mr. JENNER. You did take him to the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, that was the 15th of October?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. 1962. Where was Marina then?
Mrs. GIBSON. She might have been with us at the time.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether you went to Fort Worth and picked him up and took him to the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe we did.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of that circumstance.
Mrs. GIBSON. All I can remember is letting him off at the YMCA. I am almost positive we wouldn't go to Fort Worth, though, to pick him up. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. That was a Monday.
Mrs. GIBSON. It was the afternoon when we dropped him at the Y.

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Mr. JENNER. And you have no present recollection where you picked him up, whether----
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Whether he had come to your house or what the circumstances were?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I sure don't. I think he might have come to our house, but I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina stay with you during this October period at all?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think she stayed with us the time that he was in the YMCA.
Mr. JENNER. That is?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think she stayed with us about 5 days.
Mr. JENNER. That is 5 days?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe she stayed with us the full time, no.
Mr. JENNER. But she did stay with you during a period?
Mrs. GIBSON. A few; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of how she got there, whether you went or your husband went and picked her up and brought her to your home or whether Lee brought her?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe Lee brought her. I think it would be more--it would be normal to assume, I don't remember this, that my stepmother or my father must have brought her, because I know we didn't. I don't recall picking her up at all.
Mr. JENNER. But she stayed with you then, you think, during the period that he was at the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did Lee visit at your home while she was there during this YMCA period?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether your husband Gary went over to the YMCA and picked him up and brought him to your home?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think so. I think he came by bus, or walked. That was possible, too. It wasn't that far.
Mr. JENNER. Would you locate your apartment at 3519 Fairmont with respect to the location of the Dallas YMCA. That was downtown?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it was almost downtown. I believe it was on Maple Avenue or very near Maple Avenue.
Mr. JENNER. That is, the YMCA was?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and Maple Avenue, we were only one block off of Maple Avenue. We ran parallel with Maple, Fairmont did, and we were only 1 block off of Maple, and I'd say it was, oh, maybe 12 blocks from the YMCA.
Mr. JENNER. All easy walk?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; 12 or 14, maybe farther, but it was not a real long walk. It is possible to walk the distance. Bus service was very frequent and very easy to get.
Mr. JENNER. Now, did you become aware, you and your husband, of the fact that Lee obtained a position at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th of October? That is while he was at the YMCA, he had already obtained this position and had begun to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs. GIBSON. He began to work there while he was at the Y?
Mr. JENNER. He went to work on the 12th of October 1962.
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh my goodness. Well, it is possible that we knew this. I know, I remember that he was employed there because I remember he used to tell Gary how he liked the job, how that interested him.
Now, when I thought he was employed there I don't know. I remember when he was at the Y that he was looking for a place to live in the Dallas-Oak Cliff area.
Mr. JENNER. Did you or your ex-husband Gary or both of you help him to look?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe one evening we went out with them and looked over the prospective places, places that we knew of, the place where we used to live and Worthington, and just in the general low-rent area which would be accessible to where he was going to be working.

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Mr. JENNER. So that you knew at that time where he was working or going to work?
Mrs. GIBSON. We knew the location of the place where he was working.
Now, I am not sure if we knew that he was working already or if we thought he was still unemployed, not unemployed but already employed but not working yet.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Mrs. Hall having been involved in an automobile accident?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was in October, was it not, 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know what the month was, but I imagine it was. It must have been in the latter part of October.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Marina residing with Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. GIBSON. She was with Mrs. Hall before the accident and after the accident and while Mrs. Hall was in the hospital she lived at the house.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall also that Mrs. Hall, after she returned from the hospital, went to New York City?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. And that while she was in New York City, that Marina stayed at her home also?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she did.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether during that period Lee Oswald stayed at the Halls'?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he did. I believe, while Mrs. Hall was in the hospital; he stayed with Marina while she was alone for 2, 3, or 4 days, something like that. He was there off and on. He spent quite a few nights there, I know this.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions when you and your husband or either of you were at the Halls' when Oswald was there?
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe we took him to Fort Worth once to visit, and we stayed for supper, and Mrs. Hall was there and she cooked us supper. This is before her accident, and Alex was there and Marina and Gary and myself.
Mr. JENNER. This is the occasion to which you earlier made a reference, is it, or had you done so?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was the occasion where Alex and Lee got into an argument; yes. And this was prior to Mrs. Hall's accident. We stayed until fairly late in the evening. I can't remember if we brought Lee back with us or if he spent the night. It would seem logical, I think we brought Lee back with us.
Mr. JENNER. You brought him back to where?
Mrs. GIBSON. To Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. To where in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I can't remember.
Mr. JENNER. This was before he stayed at the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; this was after.
Mr. JENNER. This was after Mrs. Hall returned from the hospital?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; this was before her accident. This is while Marina was there.
Mr. JENNER. To help orient you, she was in the hospital from the 18th of October 1962 to the 26th of October 1962.
Mrs. GIBSON. This is before her accident. I think only a couple of days before her accident or a day before, because I remember how shocked I was when I heard that she had been in an accident. It was only a day or two before, so where would he have been living, at the Y, wouldn't he, at that time?
Mr. JENNER. He would be at the Y.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He was at the Y on the 15th.
Mrs. GIBSON. I imagine that is where we dropped him then.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of your own personal knowledge the fact that Lee stayed with Marina at the Halls' from time to time?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; Mrs. Hall told me-- he told me and Marina----
Mr. JENNER. Oswald told you?
Mr. GIBSON. Yes; and Marina told me in a roundabout fashion.
Mr. JENNER. How?

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Mrs. GIBSON. Well, she'd tell, you know, Mrs. Hall to tell me something and Mrs. Hall would tell me, that is how, or through Lee, or through gestures or a dictionary she would be able to tell me a few words.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or where, I will put it that way, where Lee stayed between the 19th of October 1962, when he left the Y, and November 3, 1962, when they moved into the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. I know that he stayed part of the time, I'd say a good portion of the time, at Mrs. Hall's. Now, whether he had another residence I don't know. I know he spent a few evenings with my father. If he spent a night there I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. When you say he spent a few evenings with your father, I infer from that--and if my inference is wrong please tell me that there were occasions when he stayed overnight in your father's home.
Mrs. GIBSON. No; not occasions. I think possibly one or two times. But he would be over there evenings and they would talk. Then he would leave. Now, where he went to I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But your recollection is that there were at least several occasions in which he stayed overnight in your father's home?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I am trying very hard to think of where he stayed. It is such a very vague recollection, so vague it is barely there, that he had a room. But I don't know where.
Mr. JENNER. During this period?
Mrs. GIBSON. During that period; yes.
Mr. JENNER. From the 19th to the 3d?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; it is so vague but it is there, that he had a room somewhere. Where I don't know. I just can't think.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that either you or your husband ever went to visit him at some room?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; Gary possibly, but me, no. Gary might have picked him up some place, but not me. I don't recall. It is just so vague and maybe it is just because you think there was one that I say this. But I feel. that there was a room some place.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection that your stepmother gave you at any time an address?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. At which Lee, a place where Lee was staying during this period from October 19 to November 3?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't. She might have, but I have no recollection of it whatsoever. But then we weren't on too tremendously good terms and I might have just not even thought of what she said.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, it is your recollection that during this period, October 19 through November 3, that Lee did stay a good portion of the time at the Halls?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With Marina?
Mrs. GIBSON. It seems to me that he had a place to live somewhere near where he was working, somewhere easily accessible on foot, to where he was working.
Mr. JENNER. That is your former husband Gary's recollection, and he seemed reasonably confident that you would recall the address.
Mrs. GIBSON. No, no; no idea. Did Gary mention something about one night we were in Oak Cliff and we were looking for some place.
Mr. JENNER. He said you were looking for Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Is that what he said? And we went up and down and up and down and we never found the place. I recall one evening, I don't remember what we were looking for, but I recall this.
Mr. JENNER. You were looking for Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Is that who we were looking for?
Mr. JENNER. No; I----
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know, I am not sure, but one evening Gary and I were looking for some place, and I don't know where it was. But it was in Oak Cliff. It was right over the river. And we went up and down and back and forth for

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a good hour looking for this address. And I can't think of where it was, and we never found it. I do remember that. We never found it.
Mr. JENNER. But it had something to do with Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think it did. I think it had to do with a room that he had over there, but where it was, the address, I don't know. I never knew Oak Cliff very well in the first place.
Mr. JENNER. You say he was now employed and could afford a room?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; but I don't know where. I--we couldn't find it wherever it was, because we looked.
Mr. JENNER. But you did have an address at that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. I had an address for something I was looking for. What it was I don't know. If I was looking for him or if I was looking for somebody else, if Gary was looking for somebody, I don't recall. But it could possibly be that it was him that we were looking for. I don't know how Gary thinks I can remember an address, though. I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you assisted Marina and Lee to move into the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. Weekend.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a weekend?
Mrs. GIBSON. It seems reasonable that it would have been a weekend, but then with Gary working as a cabdriver, I don't know if it was or not, because he sometimes worked weekends. They were good days to work. Saturday was very good. Was it a Sunday?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Wait a minute, it was a Saturday, the 3d of November 1962, was a Saturday.
Mrs. GIBSON. Did we move him in on that day or did he start rent from that day?
Mr. JENNER. The advice of the landlord or manager of the building was they moved in on the third, but do you recall that it was a weekend rather than a weekday?
Mrs. GIBSON. I wouldn't know. It could have been. It seems more logical that it would have been a weekend.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that from the beginning. What led up to it, how you participated, the extent you participated with your husband?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when we were over in Fort Worth visiting Mrs. Hall, we had taken Lee over there to see Marina, we told them we would help them move when he found a place, and he came by one evening or----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. This then was after he had obtained a job?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. He either called or came by one evening.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion when you went over to see them?
Mrs. GIBSON. When we moved them or before that other time?
Mr. JENNER. That other time.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. So this was subsequent to October 26?
Mrs. GIBSON. And also we were over there to visit them also another time after she had the accident, and I remember she was in bed.
Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after she went to the hospital?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was after, right after, when she came home and she was still in bed. It was before she went to New York.
Mr. JENNER. She came back on the 26th of October?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and we went over there and she was still in bed.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the occasion? Was he there?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the occasion when you told him that you would help him move?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When he found a place?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe he said he was looking. And I believe ----
Mr. JENNER. Lee was at the Halls' on that occasion?

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Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think we took him there.
Mr. JENNER. All right, he was not at the YMCA.
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was not staying at the Halls'?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; he came to our apartment.
Mr. JENNER. So he must have been staying somewhere in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he must have been. He came to our apartment. I don't ever recall taking him back to any place in particular, or picking him up at any place in particular. See, that is my problem. But I do remember the visit when she was in bed, and we told them that we would help them move. And I guess he must have called us or come to visit us about moving, and we took our car and I think, I don't know if we rented a trailer, I think they rented a trailer in Fort Worth, I am not sure, and left it in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Let's get it sequentially. You left your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Lee came to your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In the morning was it?
Mrs. GIBSON. Morning or early afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. And then you left your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You, your husband, and Lee?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you go?
Mrs. GIBSON. To drop the baby off.
Mr. JENNER. Your baby?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With a sitter?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; to Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. GIBSON. From there we went to Fort Worth to Mrs. Hall's, and then Lee and Gary went to rent a trailer, and I stayed with Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Where was Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I guess she was in New York. So, they came back with the trailer and we started to load up all the stuff, and Alex--
Mr. JENNER. Kleinlerer?
Mrs. GIBSON. Kleinlerer came by, I guess to supervise the moving, to see that nothing was taken of Mrs. Hall's, and he watched us move and we got all their stuff out, and we took them to their apartment in Oak Cliff, Elsbeth apartment, to move them in there. By then it was early evening, and then we left them there. We looked over the apartment and we left them there.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband rented that trailer?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think Lee did; didn't he? I don't think Gary paid for it. Did Gary pay for it? I can't imagine Gary paying for it. He might have, but I don't see it.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from that, did Lee thank you for spending the day?
Mrs. GIBSON. Very briefly, thank you, and that was all. Marina was not happy with the apartment at all. She said it was filthy dirty, it was a pigsty and she didn't want to stay there. Lee said it could be fixed up.
Mr. JENNER. What was their attitude toward each other on that occasion?
Mrs. GIBSON. They were arguing.
Mr. JENNER. During the day when you reached the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Not too much during the day but after she saw the apartment she was very unhappy with it and they were arguing very much when we left.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression she had not seen it?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe she had; no.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was a hole. It was terrible, very dirty, very badly kept, really quite a slum. It had possibilities to be fixed up. It was large, quite large, built very strangely, little rooms here and there, lots of doors, lots of

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windows. The floor had big bumps in it, you know. It was like the building had shifted and you walked up hill, you know, to get from one side of the room to the other. It was not a nice place; no.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a brick structure, wooden?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was brick outside, dark red brick. It was a small apartment building, I think two stories, overrun with weeds and garbage and people.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit the Oswald's in that apartment thereafter?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your husband did?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think he told me when I came back to Dallas in December that he visited them once.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then that sometime after November 3, you left Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I left Dallas the latter part of November.
Mr. JENNER. And just to orient you, where did you go?
Mrs. GIBSON. I went to Tucson, Ariz.
Mr. JENNER. You were with your aunt?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I was by myself.
Mr. JENNER. Had you lived in Tucson?
Mrs. GIBSON. Before that, no; not really. I had been to boarding school there a few years, and I lived in Tucson I year with my aunt in a house that we rented, and her husband, but I had not lived in Tucson before this.
Mr. JENNER. Let's identify her. What was her name?
Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Tilton.
Mr. JENNER. What was her full name?
Mrs. GIBSON. Do you want her first name?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. GIBSON. Nancy.
Mr. JENNER. Nancy Tilton?
Mrs. GIBSON. Nancy Sands Tilton.
Mr. JENNER. And her married name?
Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Charles Elliott Tilton III.
Mr. JENNER. And in previous years you had as a young girl, even as a child, lived with her; had you not?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was a good many years?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; 14 years.
Mr. JENNER. Fourteen years. Was that in Arizona or Florida?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was all around. I lived in Vermont in the summer, Arizona in the winter, Florida sometimes. It depended.
Mr. JENNER. Your aunt was a person of means I gather?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald when you returned from Arizona?
Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure if it was then or if it was right before I left.
Mr. JENNER. Before you left for what?
Mrs. GIBSON. Arizona.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him?
Mrs. GIBSON. At the apartment. He came by to pick up a manuscript that I had of his.
Mr. JENNER. That is at your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you a document that is in evidence in this proceeding as Commission Exhibit No. 95. Would you examine that and tell me whether that is the manuscript to which you have made reference several times.
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it is. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances under which you first saw that document and how it came into your possession?
Mrs. GIBSON. I asked Lee if he had written anything on Russia that I could read, if he had any material, and he said yes, he did; that he had a manuscript that he had written on general life in Russia and I asked him if I could read it and he said yes and he gave it to me. He brought it over one evening. I have no idea of the date or the time.

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Mr. JENNER. Was it reasonably early in the course of your acquaintance with the Oswalds?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was before they moved to Dallas, to Oak Cliff.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the manuscript with him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did. I told him he should publish it and he said no, that it was not for people to read.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss its contents with him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; a little bit. I asked him questions about it.
Mr. JENNER. Can you recall any of the inquiries you made of the discussions you had with him regarding the substance of it?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I asked him, I believe on this manuscript that it was said that you could not move from town to town.
Mr. JENNER. In Russia?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and he was telling me why.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. GIBSON. He said that the housing problem was so difficult there that once you got an apartment or a room in one city, that you had to wait in line in another city to get housing, therefore, you were not allowed to leave from one city to another unless you already had housing and a job. But for him it was easier because he was an American, and I guess as he said they were trying to impress him a little bit.
Mr. JENNER. In that connection did he imply that he was free to move about the country as he saw fit?
Mrs. GIBSON. Freer than Russians I would imagine. He did imply that he was freer than they were.
Mr. JENNER. To move around?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say that he had at any time left Minsk to go anywhere else?
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe he had been to Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. Was that in connection with his efforts to return to this country?
Mrs. GIBSON. I have no idea. I think it was just to see the countryside.
Mr. JENNER. Would you look further through that manuscript and see if your recollection is refreshed as to any other discussion you had with him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, we talked a little bit about clothing and food.
Mr. JENNER. That is a generalization. Tell me what you talked about.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he said that the Russian people were very impressed with his clothing, that they did not have the quality or the style that he had. Also the sparseness of fruits, vegetables there. He told them about the super-markets we had here and how plentiful fruit and vegetables were, how expensive butter and everything was in Russia, like that, your dairy products, aside from milk, butter, and cottage cheese, and all these things were extremely expensive and, well, like gold. Education we talked about, how much higher their educational standards are.
Mr. JENNER. Than ours?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say in that connection?
Mrs. GIBSON. They are much higher, that everybody is trained there to do something. That they have what would be considered, well, like your elementary school, and after you finished this required, oh, I don't know what it is, 8 or 9 years of school, you take this test, and if you pass this test you are admitted into what is considered college. If you don't pass it, you are able to choose a vocational school that you can go to to train you in some vocation, oh, like bricklayers or electricians or plumbers or something like this. You are allowed to choose whatever you want. You hear, he said, that women are laying streets, let's say, in Russia and he said that isn't because they are made to but this is because what they have chosen to do, what they want to do. That is about the general gist of what he had to say.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall something about a time when little June was baptized?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please.

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Mrs. GIBSON. Well, one evening there was a knock at the door and I went to answer it and Mrs. Hall and Marina and June were outside, and Mrs. Hall came in and told me that she had just brought Marina and June to Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina and the baby come in the apartment, too?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall said this in the presence of Marina?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home?
Mrs. GIBSON. No. She said that they brought the baby to Dallas to be baptized without Lee knowing it because he would object, and that Marina had been brought up in Russia with religion, although it was against the law there, and that she wanted her child to be baptized, and that Lee objected so strongly to it that she did it on the sly, and she asked me please not to tell him. And she left a box of clothes of his there for me that she had bought him. It was his birthday, I believe, the next day.
Mr. JENNER. Lee's birthday?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he was born on the 18th of October 1939, so this was the occasion when he was living at the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. His birthday was the next day or something, or a couple of days.
Mr. JENNER. He was at the YMCA from the 15th through the 19th, 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. I am getting my days messed up, because I thought she stayed with us while he was at the YMCA. She must not have. You know, I can't place when she stayed with us. I can just place the period of time that she stayed with us, you know, that it was not over 3 or 4 days.
Mr. JENNER. Could it have been right following his leaving the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. It possibly could have been. I really don't know. But like I said, that is something I forgot. Now that you know his birthday, you can place when she was baptized and when she brought this box to me.
Mr. JENNER. She was baptized the day before his birthday?
Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure if it was the day before or 2 days or 3 days, but it was real close to his birthday.
Mr. JENNER. Real close?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The records indicate the baptism occurred on the 17th of October, 1962.
Mrs. GIBSON. Then it must have been the day before.
Mr. JENNER. Which is the day before his birthday, but the occasion you remember it was about his birthday time?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They left a box of clothing or some gift?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, it had a shirt and a pair of sox and general things.
Mr. JENNER. These were new?
Mrs. GIBSON. Brand new.
Mr. JENNER. A gift?
Mrs. GIBSON. A gift; yes. From his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Didn't it seem strange to you at that time with him at the YMCA they didn't ring him up or go by the YMCA and leave this birthday gift?
Mrs. GIBSON. She didn't want him to know that she was in Dallas because she didn't want him to know she had baptized the baby.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee speak with you on that subject?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I guess it must have been the next day that he dropped by and I gave him the box, and I didn't say anything about this, but I think he had heard it. I think he had talked to Marina or something on the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. He became aware when he came by the next day, which would be his birthday, that they had--
Mr.s, GIBSON. I think she told him on the telephone that she had baptized the baby, and he asked me if I knew, and I said yes, and he said, "Why didn't you tell me?" And I said, that it was not any of my business.

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Mr. JENNER. I am a little bit confused. He came by the next day, that is the day after Mrs. Hall and Marina were there?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he came by to pick up his birthday gifts?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At that occasion you didn't say anything to him about the baptism?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Therefore, at some subsequent occasion----
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. After that----
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There was a discussion?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I think it was probably the day after that that he dropped by and he asked me about this. He asked me if they had been there, and I said yes. He says, "Why didn't you tell me?"
Mr. JENNER. Why you didn't tell him what?
Mrs. GIBSON. That they had been there and that the baby had been baptized, and I said that it was none of my business.
Mr. JENNER. The thing that confuses me a little bit is he came by and picked up the birthday gift.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said about baptism.
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion.
Mrs. GIBSON. No, no; I think he----
Mr. JENNER. Therefore, he must have known or inquired as to where you got the birthday gift, correct?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't recall. I think I had some story fixed up for that. Mrs. Hall, I think, told me to tell him that she had been by, or something. I can't remember what it was, but she had some story, you know, for how come I had that.
Mr. JENNER. That would explain that, then.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I don't, you know, really remember what was said exactly.
Mr. JENNER. The day following that occasion----
Mrs. GIBSON. I did not tell him that I had seen Marina, though.
Mr. JENNER. Is when he approached you on the subject?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of the baptism and why you hadn't told him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him?
Mrs. GIBSON. I told him it was none of my business, and he wasn't too happy about it.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say about the fact that June had been baptized?
Mrs. GIBSON. Not too much. He wasn't really that upset about it. He just said he didn't like the idea, but that was all. He wasn't terribly upset about it.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Gibson, was he upset because the baby had been baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church rather than the Lutheran Church, for example?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; he was an atheist. He just didn't want anything to do with religion.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband have discussions with him on the subject of religion?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what were his views on the subject of religion?
Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't believe in it. He didn't believe in God. He didn't believe in anything.
Mr. JENNER. And did that discussion occur reasonably often, on more than one occasion?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, it was mentioned in with politics. You know how that can get. The two subjects you are not supposed to talk about we talked about probably the most.

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Mr. JENNER. What was your impression about any view or hope or desire or ambition on his part of some future attainment?
Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't really talk too much about in the future or what he wanted to do. I don't know what he wanted to do with himself.
Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy ever mentioned in the course of the discussions between your husband and Lee?
Mrs. GIBSON. Never, never. He wasn't President at the time anyway, was he?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; he was.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he was. He had just become President, hadn't he? No, he was never mentioned. Now, the only person ever mentioned pertaining to that was the Governor of Texas.
Mr. JENNER. He became President in 1960.
Mrs. GIBSON. It was the Governor of Texas who was mentioned mostly.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mrs. GIBSON. First you are going to have to tell me who the Governor was.
Mr. JENNER. Connally.
Mrs. GIBSON. Connally. Wasn't that the one that----
Mr. JENNER. That had been Secretary of the Navy.
Mrs. GIBSON. That had been Secretary of the Navy, was it? Well, for some reason Lee just didn't like him. I don't know why, but he didn't like him.
Mr. JENNER. Would this refresh your recollection, that the subject of Governor Connally arose in connection with something about Lee's discharge from the Marines?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't recall. I just know Lee never spoke too much about why he left the Marines or anything like that. I don't know. Maybe it was a dishonorable discharge, I don't know. All I know is that it was something he didn't talk about. And there was a reason why he did not like Connally.
Mr. JENNER. Whatever the reason was, he didn't articulate the reason particularly?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; he just didn't like him.
Mr. JENNER. But you have the definite impression he had an aversion to Governor Connally?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; but he never ever said a word about Kennedy.
Mr. JENNER. Did you answer?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your answer is yes?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That he did have a definite aversion?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To Governor Connally as a person?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he speak of that reasonably frequently in these discussions?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; not really, no. He didn't bring it up frequently.
Mr. JENNER. But he was definite and affirmative about it, was he?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he didn't like him.
Mr. JENNER. Was General Walker ever discussed?
Mrs. GIBSON. No, no.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any discussions in these political arguments between your husband Gary and Lee Oswald about, oh, the American Civil Liberties Union, the Birch Society, people having, let's say, extreme right viewpoints or left viewpoints?
Mrs. GIBSON. Gary was quite a Democrat, and he disliked the Birch Society intensely. So every once in a while they would come into the conversation, being that Gary felt so personal about them. He didn't like them at all. And Gary once in a while would make a comment, "Oh, he is a Bircher," I can't name any particular person, but just somebody in particular.
I think Dallas is a fairly Republican city. No, there was nothing ever about any of the different factions, or right or left wing. Just I know Gary disliked the Birchers. As I recall, I don't think Lee had much to say about them. I think maybe he liked more radical people than we did, you know, the normal straight down the middle or conservative or something.

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Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you saw either of the Oswalds at your father's home?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when your father and your stepmother brought either of the Oswalds to your apartment other than those you have already testified about?
Mrs. GIBSON. Not that I recall, no.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall seeing Oswald on the day before he moved into the YMCA? He moved into the YMCA on Monday, October 15. Did you see him the previous day, Sunday?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I really don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall taking him to the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mrs. JENNER. On Monday, the 15th?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; we might have. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go and pick up Oswald at Mrs. Hall's when you took him to the YMCA, or did he just come by your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. I can't remember where we picked him up, but I know we didn't go to Fort Worth to pick him up, no. It could have been at the bus station.
Mr. JENNER. But you went somewhere to pick him up is your recollection?
Mrs. GIBSON. We could have gone somewhere. He could have come to our apartment. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of Marina staying with the Halls?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her going to attend to Mrs. Hall; to do that before she actually went to live with Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. GIBSON. I might have heard something about it from my father. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But you did not hear it from Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't know Mrs. Hall until I met her through Marina.
Mr. JENNER. After Marina.
Mrs. GIBSON. When I went to visit there.
Mr. JENNER. That is when you went to visit Marina while she was staying at the Hall's?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; when Lee and Gary and I went over there. That is the first time I ever met her. But she was very friendly because she knew my father, you know, and so it was a very friendly atmosphere. Did Mrs. Hall give a fixed time of when Marina stayed with her?
Mr. JENNER. I can't say it was a fixed time, but she testified that it was before she had her automobile accident.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, what I am trying to fix in my mind is when Marina stayed with me, you know.
Mr. JENNER. That is the 3 or 4 days?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I can't fix that in my mind at all now. I thought it was when he was at the YMCA and then it couldn't have been because of when the baby was baptized and when his birthday was. But it must have been shortly before that, because it wasn't after that. So it must have been before.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it wasn't on the 14th of October because you took him to the YMCA on the 15th. Was Marina living with you then?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; not then, no. But she might have been shortly before that. I believe she was at Mrs. Hall's then, wasn't she. Doesn't she know where she was?
Mr. JENNER. Well, she has got some impressions; yes.
Mrs. GIBSON. I hope she does.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out what you recall.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, you know, I can't recall when she was there. I know when she wasn't there now more than I did before, from placing his birthday and the box and that, I know she wasn't there then.
Mr. JENNER. Wasn't where?
Mrs. GIBSON. At my place. I know she wasn't there then, because she came

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to visit me from Fort Worth with Mrs. Hall. But how long she had been with Mrs. Hall must not have been too long.
Mr. JENNER. The thing that bothers me, also, Mrs. Gibson, Mrs. Hall entered the hospital on the 18th of October.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is Lee's birthday. She was at your place the preceding day?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was that night that she got in the accident. That is why I said it was very shocking when I heard, you know, that she had been in an accident.
Mr. JENNER. And at the time she had her accident, Marina was living with the Halls'?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was living at Mrs. Hall's home?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband Gary recalls that while Lee was at the YMCA, that he came to visit at your home.
Mrs. GIBSON. That is possible.
Mr. JENNER. And his recollection was that Marina was with you at that time.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, she couldn't have been.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Could it be that she stayed with you for a few days after he left the YMCA and before they moved into the Elsbeth Street home or apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I don't know how it could be possible, because when we moved her from Fort Worth, she was at Mrs. Hall's. Now whether she stayed with me while Mrs. Hall was in New York, she couldn't have because she was, Mrs. Hall was in New York when we moved Marina, see, and Marina was there.
Now, I suppose it is possible that she stayed with us, then, but I remember she stayed with Mrs. Hall after the accident because Mrs. Hall needed her. She couldn't get around. I know she was there before the accident because of the baptism and Lee's birthday. So it leads me to believe she was there the whole time, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when the Oswalds left the Mercedes Street apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know when they left that. They moved, from there they moved all her stuff to Mrs. Hall's.
Mr. JENNER. Right from the Mercedes apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess they must have. All the stuff was there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when your father moved Marina and the baby from the Elsbeth Street apartment to Mrs. Meller's?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the Oswalds living at 214 Neely Street?
Mrs. GIBSON. Where was that?
Mr. JENNER. That is just about a block from the Elsbeth Street apartment, which they moved into from the Elsbeth Street apartment.
Mrs. GIBSON. That must have been after I left.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it was.
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't recall anything about that?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wasn't there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you do recall Marina staying 3 or 4 days.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Can you grasp in your recollection why? What led up to that?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was the period before she went to Mrs. Hall's. It must have been after Lee lost his job, or quit.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and before he got the new one. It must have been then. And I think it was while they were trying to find her a place to live, while he was job hunting.
Mr. JENNER. And before he got his job with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been.
Mr. JENNER. On the 12th of October? You see that is a 4-day period, Mrs. Gibson.

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Mrs. GIBSON. Between when he lost his job and got his job?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. GIBSON. That is probably where she stayed then. I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. The last day he worked at Leslie Welding was the 8th of October 1962. He became employed and went to work for Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th of October 1962.
Mrs. GIBSON. That probably was when she stayed with us, then. I just don't have any recollection of when it was.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection that she came to stay with you, the reason why? Was she having difficulty with Oswald? Was that the reason, or was it because he was out of work?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was because he was out of work. I don't think they had any money. I think my father lent them money, didn't he? I don't know. Somebody must have given them money. It was Bouhe, that is who it was who lent them money.
Mr. JENNER. It was only 4 days, Mrs. Gibson.
Mrs. GIBSON. No; but he had to have money to get started. He had to have money to stay at the YMCA. He had to have money to get started, and I know who gave him money. George Bouhe did.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; George Bouhe did, there is no question about that.
Mrs. GIBSON. Because I recall that. He gave him money, and he also had the debt to pay to the American Embassy.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to where Oswald stayed prior to the time that he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October, that is between the 8th of October and the 15th of October? That is a week.
Mrs. GIBSON. No; all I know is he never did stay at our place overnight ever.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when you were looking for this address, was it an address on North Beckley?
Mrs. GIBSON. It is possible that it was.
Mr. JENNER. Does that stimulate your recollection at all?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; it doesn't. I just know that Beckley is near the river.
Mr. JENNER. And you were looking in the area.
Mrs. GIBSON. Near the river; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, between the 19th of October and the 3d of November, which was the day you picked up Oswald and Marina and the baby and took them to the Elsbeth Street apartment, do you know where Oswald was staying?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; but it was probably in that area where I was looking, you know. I am not even sure who I was looking for, but it seems possible. I don't know anybody else in Oak Cliff, you know. If that is anywhere near the Jaggars Co., and I think it is, that is probably where, and who we were looking for.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina taken to the dentist to your knowledge other than the first period, the first visit in August of 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think she might have had another appointment. That possibly could have been the other reason why she stayed with me, but I am not positive. It seems to me you know by the dentist records if she had. I remember she had teeth pulled. Now, how many--and, as I recall, those first appointments led to a later appointment after her mouth had healed. But I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina stay at the Halls' on more than one occasion, that is periods?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Was it just one period?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was one period.
Mr. JENNER. Did it have anything to do with Mrs. Hall's accident?
Mrs. GIBSON. Why Marina stayed there, you mean, or why she left?
Mr. JENNER. Why she went there in the first instance.
Mrs. GIBSON. No; Mrs. Hall had not had her accident when Marina first moved in.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall aware that Marina had stayed at your home?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think so. In fact, I could almost say positively she must have been aware of it.
Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I mean she never knew that Marina and I knew each other.

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She brought her to my place. I had told her that, I believe I myself, told her that Marina had stayed with me. I mean it is just in common conversation that she must have known. Didn't she know?
Mr. JENNER. Including this 3- or 4-day period?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she must have known because that was before Marina stayed with her. Does she know?
Mr. JENNER. She didn't mention it in her testimony.
Mrs. GIBSON. Am I the last one to testify?
Mr. JENNER. No. Mrs. Gibson, were you aware that Lee Oswald gave your apartment address and your telephone number--when I say your I mean you and your husband--when he was seeking employment in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he asked Gary's permission and Gary said all right.
Mr. JENNER. That was in your presence?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that permission requested before he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October ? He obtained his job at Jaggars, remember, on the 12th of October.
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it was before. He said he needed to establish a residence, and a place where people could get in touch with him, where if there were any jobs coming up that they could get in touch with him and call him and he would check with us and we would tell him if there had been any calls for him or messages during the day.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were there any calls or messages?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; not that I recall. I don't believe there were.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him looking for work during this period? That would be the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th of October.
Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know. If he had a job, it doesn't seem that he would be looking for a job.
Mr. JENNER. He was at the Texas Employment Commission on the 9th, 10th, and 11th.
Mrs. GIBSON. Then probably he was. And if he gave our address and our phone number; I am sure he was.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall where he was staying during that period?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Could he have been staying at Hall's?
Mrs. GIBSON. Gee, it is possible, but I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that he did stay at the Hall's a good deal or portions of the time that Marina was there?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he went there weekends, as I recall, when he was working. He spent the weekends there.
Mr. JENNER. When he was working at Jaggars?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So when he began to work at Jaggars, which was the 12th of October, up to the 3d of November when you and your husband, Mr. Taylor, took the Oswalds to the Elsbeth Street apartment, he visited at the Hall's on weekends?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So there was some place he was staying then himself during that period?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; there must have been.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Hall live in Fort Worth?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Fort Worth is approximately 30 miles?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. From Dallas, isn't it?
Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't stay in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. He stayed in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you can't recall still where he stayed in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I have no idea.

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Mr. JENNER. But it is now your definite recollection that he did stay in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I know that----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me-- after he became employed at Jaggars?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I will tell you why. Because he told us that he goes by bus Friday night or something to Fort Worth and he'd come back Sunday evening. So it would be my normal assumption, I would say, that he was staying in Dallas at the time.
Mr. JENNER. Had you and your father had some difficulty, some spats between the two of you along about this time?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; we had been spatting all our life.
Mr. JENNER. I mean were you on speaking terms?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at least one occasion when you picked up Oswald in front of the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. That your husband Gary would go over and pick him up?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so.
Mr. JENNER. Bring him to your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so, or he'd walk. I don't know. I don't believe Gary picked him up there. I believe he walked or took the bus.
Mr. JENNER. What do you recall with respect to Lee's habits of temperance or intemperance, drinking?
Mrs. GIBSON. I never saw him take a drink.
Mr. JENNER. Did he smoke?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't think he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke?
Mrs. GIBSON. On the sly.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. GIBSON. Because he objected to smoking, as I recall. He did. He didn't like to see her smoke, and he didn't like to see her wear any makeup.
Mr. JENNER. Did any discussions respecting that occur at your home?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; she told me this. Don't ask me how. We just got it across to each other, you know.
Mr. JENNER. How did she communicate with you?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when two people get together, if you try hard enough you will get your idea across. If you have a dictionary and two hands, you will get the idea across, and that is how we managed to, you know, get our ideas fairly well across most of the time. But we didn't make too great an attempt at speaking because it was so much effort. But I do know this about makeup and smoking.
Mr. JENNER. Were there arguments between them on the subject?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, I'd say maybe small ones. He didn't like her to wear lipstick and she liked to, things like that. She did like to smoke.
Mr. JENNER. What about his reading habits?
Mrs. GIBSON. He read a lot.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mrs. GIBSON. My father had given him books to read. He was very much interested in them.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have them with him at times when he was at your place?
Mrs. GIBBONS. One book I think he gave me that my father had asked him to give me or I gave him that my father had asked him to give me, one way or the other, it was called "Animal Farm."
Mr. JENNER. What is that book about?
Mrs. GIBSON. It is a satire, I guess. It is about animals, but it is a takeoff on people. Orwell--did he write it?
Mr. JENNER. I think so. What is your recollection as to whether you gave Oswald that book to read or whether your father gave it to him to read?
Mrs. GIBSON. One way or the other it got to me. Either my father gave it to me to read and I gave it to Lee or he gave it to Lee to read and then Lee gave it to me. It was one way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember any other books?

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Mrs. GIBSON. I think my father gave him some literature. I don't know what it was, though. Oh, "1984" was another book that he read.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate that he had read it before?
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe that he had. That was by Orwell, too, wasn't it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it was. Did he indicate that he had read "1984" when he was a Marine at El Toro, Calif.?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think he read it again. My father had it and my father read it, and I think Lee said he wanted to read it again.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss that book in your presence?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall as to the titles of books he read?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think he read the "Rise and the Fall of the Third Reich." He read Hitler's, what would it be, autobiography?
Mr. JENNER. "Mein Kampf"?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he read the Marx book--what was that, was that the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? No; what was it, about Marxism?
Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know what it was, but anyway, he read a book that Marx wrote on Marxism, and that is about all I can recall on his literature.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some people or a person whose first name was Natasha or Evalina?
Mrs. GIBSON. I know Natasha.
Mr. JENNER. How did Natasha come into this?
Mrs. GIBSON. First you will have to give me her last name so I am sure I have got the right one.
Mr. JENNER. I can't give it to you.
Mrs. GIBSON. You don't have it?
Mr. JENNER. I can't because I don't know.
Mrs. GIBSON. You can't because you don't have it? Really?
Mr. JENNER. Really.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, Natasha was a friend of my parents. They got in some numerous squabbles and sometimes they'd part.
Mr. JENNER. Was she a single lady?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; she has a husband.
Mr. JENNER. They lived in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; they are Russian. I can't think of her last name for the life of me. Now, I don't know if Natasha knew Lee or not. Natasha was a friend of my father and Jeanne. They got in numerous squabbles. Their friendship would break off and then they'd come back together again after a few months after the squabble had quieted down. Now, whether she knew Lee or not, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that in one of your interviews, and my query of you is what led you to mention that, Natasha?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, being that she was one of the Russian colony I figured probably she would know them. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. You were speculating?
Mrs. GIBSON. Speculating; that is all. Whether she did or not, I have no idea.
Mr. JENNER. In one of your interviews you stated that after Marina had stayed with you, she had moved into the Hall's. Does that refresh your recollection that that 3- or 4-day period was immediately preceding her moving into the Hall's?
Mrs. GIBSON. No. When all those questions were given to me, I didn't have much time to think. It was completely by surprise. And when I said that, I meant the first day, because as you found out, those days that I am talking about are extremely vague. Why I don't know, but they are very vague.
Mr..JENNER. Do you recall whether possibly Oswald stayed with his mother in Fort Worth?
Mrs. GIBSON. Maybe.
Mr. JENNER. In this period, say, from October 19 through November 3?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe he did, because he had to be in Dallas. He couldn't commute to Dallas every day. Does his mother say this?

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Mr. JENNER. No. Do you have any recollection that Oswald stayed in the Elsbeth Street apartment before Marina was moved in?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur as to whether Oswald had renounced or attempted to renounce his American citizenship?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject even discussed?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it was when he told us about how, you know, the Russians wanted him to give it up.
Mr. JENNER. And he declined to?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina politically minded?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wouldn't say so.
Mr. JENNER. But she was religious?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say she was.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald as to his intellect?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think he was very intelligent.
Mr. JENNER. Was he articulate?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what about his argumentation?
Mrs. GIBSON. Very good. He could make almost anybody believe what he was saying.
Mr. JENNER. He was strong in his convictions?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Unbending?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of whether he was quick-tempered or prone to violence?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think he was very quick tempered.
Mr. JENNER. He flared up, did he, during these arguments?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And other things, with your husband?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; not with my husband. With his wife. He got disgusted, I think, with our stupidity, as he called it, which used to infuriate me. I don't particularly like being called stupid, and he used to call us stupid a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Was that because you differed in your view?
Mrs. GIBSON. Differed with him.
Mr. JENNER. From him?
Mr. GIBSON. Yes; that was his favorite word, we were stupid, we weren't using our brains. He'd come up with something like, "How could you possibly say such a thing?"
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick him up at the Jaggars place of business?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Your father and your stepmother now reside in Haiti?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did they go to Haiti?
Mrs. GIBSON. Last year some time.
Mr. JENNER. June of 1963.
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your father or your stepmother since then?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I saw them a couple of weeks ago.
Mr. JENNER. When they were here to testify, they dropped by to see you, did they?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband Donald Gibson is a native-born American?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In an interview on December 3, 1963, you are reported to have said that Lee Oswald occasionally came to your apartment, of yourself and your husband, and although Marina stayed at your apartment, only about 2 weeks, Oswald continued to visit on occasions. Does that refresh your recollection that this stay of Marina at your home was longer than 3 to 4 days?
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been misunderstood. If I had said 2 weeks I must

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have meant in all, meaning putting all your days together, because I never would have said 2 weeks meaning a solid period of time of 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. I think that is about all. I neglected to do this, Mrs. Gibson. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, did you not?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. General counsel for the Commission, with which he enclosed a copy of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of this Commission?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A copy of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130 which created the Commission?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And fixed its scope and its powers and its duties and responsibilities, which in general are to investigate the circumstances surrounding leading up to, and involving the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission under which depositions are taken?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you understand from all those papers that the Commission is interviewing people who had, fortunately, or unfortunately, touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald and others?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we had understood and as has now been revealed you did have a connection with or some connection with the Oswalds?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which you have now elucidated.
I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff of the Commission, and Mr. Mosk, who was present earlier, likewise is a member. Now, having in mind the objects and purposes and duties of the Commission, is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to add that you think would be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of this subject?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that is all I have, and I appreciate very much your coming here today. I know it is a considerable inconvenience.