Testimony Of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth And Gertrude Hunter

The testimony of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude Hunter was taken at 11 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Present were June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, children of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William A. McKenzie and Henry Baer, counsel for .Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; Peter Paul Gregory, interpreter; and Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S. Secret Service.

[Note.--The asterisk represents a response by Marina Oswald without assistance of the interpreter. All other responses shown for Marina Oswald were through the interpreter.]

Mr. LIEBELER. May the record show, Marina, that you have previously been sworn as a witness when you appeared before the Commission in Washington?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you will regard the-testimony that you are going to give here this morning as a continuation of the testimony you gave to the Commission, and I assume you will regard yourself as being under oath as you did before the Commission?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that Marina has indicated she will regard herself as being under a continuing oath?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The basic purpose for your presence here this morning relates to testimony that has been given by two ladies, Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter, who are outside, that you were in a furniture store in Irving, Tex., in early November with your two children and with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mrs. OSWALD. [No response.]
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you had previously testified about ,this and have told the Commission that you were not in the store at that time. We want these two ladies to have an opportunity to see you and have you see them, to see if your recollection can be refreshed or if they were mistaken. Is that agreeable with you, Marina?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I can remember--I'm sure, I never forget and the baby is just 2 weeks. I would like to know under what circumstances these two ladies saw me at that particular time?
Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, where the store is located?
Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter have come into the room [reporter's note: 11:10 a.m.], and let the record further show that they have both previously testified that sometime in early November 1963, they saw Marina and the two children and Lee Oswald in a furniture store located on East Irving Boulevard in Irving, Tex.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name of the street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will ask Mrs. Whitworth, who was the operator of that store, the address of the store and to describe the store generally for Marina and its name.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. The store was known as the Furniture Mart. The name was clearly on it, and it was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard. That's at the corner of Jefferson and Irving Boulevard on the north side of the street and in the same block with the bank. In fact, the back of it was up to the Bank & Trust there and it looked like at one time it might have been a service station and we had changed it into a furniture store, and they would have seen more used furniture in it, because we had new and used furniture. This clear enough?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of the streets--that wouldn't be material to me. I wouldn't remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right.
Mr. GREGORY. Would you like for me to give the complete answer of this lady to her?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be the main thoroughfare in Irving.
Mr. GREGORY. That's the street across from the bank?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it would be in the same block with the Irving Bank & Trust.
Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing I am interested in is whether Mrs. Whitworth actually knows me or not, whether this lady actually saw me or knows me or not. That's what I am interested in.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let us ask Mrs. Whitworth to describe briefly the circumstances under which you say these people came in the store.
Mr. McKENZIE. And the time of the day, establish the time of the day and the complete circumstances.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it would be more from the middle of the day until, you see, say 3 o'clock in the afternoon or maybe 4 o'clock in the afternoon. When they came in, and drove up to the front, and Mr. Oswald came in the store first.
He came in and asked, you know, about this part of the gun and then he went back to the car, and after asking me about, you know, it--I said I didn't have the part--I didn't have the gun part that he wanted, he said, "You have furniture in here?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "I am going to be needing some," and he went back to the car and took whatever he had back to the car, and then he came back in and she followed him and she had the baby in her arms. It was a tiny baby--he told me it was 2 weeks old, and this little girl [indicating June Oswald] was walking in front of Mrs. Oswald and she was whining a little bit and Mrs. Oswald was, you know, carrying the baby and we come back in and went to the extreme back of the store, and I showed them some bedroom suites and had to pull these beds out and Mrs. Oswald stood there and she never said anything, but Mr. Oswald and I talked, you know, about the furniture, and then we talked about the babies, but she turned and left before he did, you know, because I .walked back up to the front of the store with him, because she was already at the front of the store by the time we turned and went up there, and it was a cool day and it was cool enough that you would have on a little wrap and this little girl, as well as I remember, had on some kind of a short sweater or coat, and Mrs. Oswald had on a short coat too, and she had her hair tied back.
She doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still hadn't gone back like she was. This baby was just a tiny thing. I didn't see it, it was wrapped up in some kind of a blanket, but this little girl--it definitely was her. It seemed like her hair was a little darker but she did have on some kind of a cap.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand this?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I wonder if somebody was in car or not?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That, I wouldn't testify that there was anybody in the car with you, because I observed what happened in the store, you know. I. mean, you impressed me in the store and not out of the store. I didn't notice, because too many people drove up. I thought your car was a two-tone car, either a Ford or a Plymouth- -now--I don't know. I thought it was blue and white I wouldn't, you know, swear to that. I mean, too many cars drove up out in front like that, but it was what happened on the inside of the store that I was more impressed with and remembered, and your actions and his, because she acted like she wasn't interested in what he said because she didn't exchange words or anything, but I did talk to him, and I know it was him and I know she was in there.
She may not remember it, but if I was to see her today and seeing her that day and I was to meet her on the street, it would be hard for me to identify her. You know, she still has the features, but her face was round and she had her hair pulled back [indicating].
Mr. GREGORY. You mean in a pony tail?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. In a pony tail.
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; it wasn't that.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, there was something tied around it--you had something tied around it, I mean, slicked back from her face.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't wear this.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I called it a pony tail, but it was kind of pulled back to the back.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I had two pigtails.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she might have it was tied back and whipped back from her face. Her face was round then and she was pretty then--I'd say she was pretty.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. The little girl--I tried to talk to her and attract her attention, but she was whining all the time she was in there and she was trying to attend to this little girl and had this baby in her arms and the little girl walked out in front of her, you know, when they left the store.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time I was in the store? I do not remember that I was ever in a furniture store. That does not make a difference for me. I recall the time when I was in a store with Mrs. Ruth Paine.
Mr. GREGORY. Which store was it?
Mrs. OSWALD. In that store they were selling baby things and towels and I was looking for something for a child.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't sell anything like that--mine was all furniture.
*Mrs. OSWALD. There was just one store like that.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. But we went to the extreme back of the store and, as well as I remember, I had a used reddish maple bookcase headboard bed, you know, I was showing you.
Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in any furniture store.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she didn't act like she was, even that day, you know, she walked off.
*Mrs. OSWALD. You know, not because I want to say you are wrong, but I can't remember I was in a furniture store, especially when I talked with somebody.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Marina, you said you do remember one time that you were in a store with Mrs. Paine and with Lee and with the children. Do you remember how long you were in the store that time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. About 30 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how long, Mrs. Whitworth, was she in the store this time that you are talking about?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say from 30 to 40 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Marina seeing any furniture in the store at that time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was a cafe on that side on the left side and baby clothes on the right side, and a radio and that's all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you went to that store for?
*Mrs. OSWALD. To buy Junie pants--rubber pants.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever seeing these ladies before, Marina?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember seeing a woman that looked something like Mrs. Hunter, here, Mrs. Hunter being the woman in the blue dress?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that I saw her, but I saw a woman or women like her--not one, but many of that type.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, as you sit here and you look at these children and you look at Marina, are you sure in your own mind that these were the people who were in the store that day?
Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen Marina several times before the baby came--several times. She said she saw me do you remember talking to a lady about getting help for you before your baby came?
Mrs. OSWALD. For housework?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; she was talking about the welfare of clothes for the baby before the baby came, but I don't know who she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, wait just a minute, Mrs. Hunter, you say you talked to Marina about this?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was with another woman and this other woman didn't come around, and I couldn't understand too much of what she said, and she couldn't understand too much of what I said, and I says, "If you need help with this baby, we can get you help at Parkland Hospital." Do you remember that?
Mr. LIEBELER. Just a minute, would you describe the other woman?
Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the other woman don't mean a thing to me. All I know, she was with this other woman, but I live on Second Street and it was down below me, four or five different streets and this woman, I believe, was going to see someone about fixing a tire or changing a tire. Now, I couldn't tell you what the other woman had on because it was just curiosity to me why--that her couldn't speak like we could and was in this condition and I kept asking her where her husband was and I never did make her understand me and I finally asked her if they had separated [indicating hand signals]--and I did that way--with her, and she made me understand he was staying over in town, but then, I didn't know who she was or nothing about her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did all this happen?
Mrs. HUNTER. Let me see, it was in a filling station--how come me at the station--I don't know whether that's the day that we looked at a car that this man had for sale at the station or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you think this happened, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was on the corner of Sixth and Hastings Streets---I know where the station was--I couldn't even tell you the name of the station, because we were looking at a car there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what were the circumstances under which you were in this station, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. HUNTER. Now, I have never been there but about twice, but at this particular time, last July until right after Christmas, we were looking just for a used pickup or a used car for my husband to haul his tools in. We have a used car at this time there was a car for sale there.
*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas?
Mrs. HUNTER. What?
*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I said we were looking for used cars, so that's bound to have been my purpose there because we do not trade with that man. Do you know a driveway and a filling station and a washateria on Sixth Street?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember Irving.
Mrs. HUNTER. This was before I would say it was in September or October. It was before just a little while, I know, before your baby came, because I won't tell you the remark I made, but anyhow, I know it was pretty close-almost due time you could tell from the way you were carrying the baby, it was almost time for the baby.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember her [indicating Mrs. Whitworth].
Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you see this other woman at all, Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; she got out and had her back to me and if I'm not badly mistaken the woman had on a dark dress, but what the woman looked like, it wasn't even dawning on me, because I wasn't even interested. The only thing I seen that she was very uncomfortable and what I thought she was saying was that she was going to have to have help when the baby comes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Excuse me, but I would like to ask her a question; may I?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, what is your full name, please?
Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter.
Mr. McKENZIE. What is your husband's name?
Mrs. HUNTER. John T. Hunter.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you work with Mrs. Whitworth there in the store?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; just visiting her.
Mr. McKENZIE. You were not in the store on this particular occasion that Mrs. Whitworth has described; is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I was there.
Mr. McKENZIE. You were there?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. And What were you doing in the store that morning or that day?
Mrs. HUNTER. We go to football games together and we were down discussing whether we was going to have, what do you call it, caravan cars or charter a bus, and it was after 2 o'clock in the afternoon, because I never did leave the house only after 2. My daughter works at Commercial Title and she calls me before she goes back off of her lunch hour at 2 o'clock.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, this was after 2 o'clock and prior to the football weekend; is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. On Wednesday or Thursday--I won't say just which day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, On that occasion when you were in the store with Mrs. Whitworth at the Furniture Mart, did Mrs. Oswald or her husband buy any clothes or anything of the sort?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went to talking about the cafe. It used to be a bus station and it has the counter and the chairs for the cafe. The only thing she had there was the candy, and there was some used clothes and a church or welfare or something had had them there, they had their used clothes there, and there were some shoes there. Now, she might have thought she was in a cafe or a drygoods store.
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time I'm asking you about, did either Mrs. Oswald or her husband buy any clothes; do you recall?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; they didn't buy anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Mrs. Oswald before; is that correct?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was until now--I do now--I would know her eyes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Of course, you have seen many pictures of her since then.
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I'll be honest with you, I have only seen her once on television and that was in Washington, and day before yesterday I wanted to be sure that .this woman had the long hair, and the way it looked there. Now, I'm honest with him about that. I didn't watch the run of it on television.
Mr. McKENZIE. By "him" you are referring to Mr. Liebeler here?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't know what his name is.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's right.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, on this occasion when she was in the store with the two children and her husband, that Mrs. Whitworth has described, did you notice the automobile that they came in?
Mrs. HUNTER. I sure did.
Mr. McKENZIE. And was it in the same automobile you had seen her in before at the filling station?
Mrs. HUNTER. No.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Not the same? Not the same?
Mr. McKENZIE. Did you go outside and see the automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing in the side door looking up and down the street while she had went with them to the back. Now, I didn't hear her say nothing and I don't know whether she said something to the little girl, or what she said, but she did go "shhh." She could have said "shhh" or something, but I remember her making some kind of a remark to the little girl.
Mr. McKENZIE. To quiet the little girl?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time did you notice the automobile in front?
Mrs. HUNTER. Can I tell him what I told you?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, what I meant--I didn't want to do something that I shouldn't. I was looking for some friends of mine from Houston that drove a two-tone blue and white Ford--a 1957--I think it was, and when this car drove up, I left a note on my mailbox when I left the house and I told them if they come while I was gone to come down to this place, because I would be there, or left her telephone number on the note too, and when they drove up--
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is "they" now?
Mrs. HUNTER. Mr. and Mrs. Dominik from Houston, and when this car drove up, I thought it was them and I just said, "Well, my company has come," and that was it and when I seen he was getting out of the car I just seen then that it wasn't, and I just sat back down in the platform rocker there where I was sitting. It was a partition in the front part of the store and I was sitting right here in platform rocker and there was some tables and chairs over here and I had opened this side door. She had it shut and I had opened it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did your friends from Houston come while they were there?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; they never did come up until later on, and he come up in a truck--several weeks later.
Mr. McKENZIE. Was there anybody else in the automobile that drove up that they got out of?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; just her and him and the two children. Now, I wasn't up close to the car. I was standing in the door and the car was parked over here something like this, and somebody could have been down in the floorboard of the car--I wouldn't say they wasn't.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did you see who was driving the automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. He got under the steering wheel.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee?
Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him drive the car?
Mrs. HUNTER. I seen him at the steering wheel, under the steering wheel, and if there was someone else, now, in there, you couldn't see them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, Mr. Oswald got behind the steering wheel of the car and he drove the car out of the parking lot in front of the building somewhere; isn't that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen Lee drive the car in my lifetime. Lee never drove a car with me or the children in it. The only time I saw him behind the wheel was when Ruth Paine taught him to drive the car, he was practicing parking the car when Ruth Paine was teaching him to drive.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was all in front of Mr. Paine's house; wasn't it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sure this lady is trying to tell the truth, but the only possible person who could have driven the car when we were in that store could have been Mrs. Ruth Paine. She knows all the stores where we went because we never went there without her.

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you've got your privileges---you've got your privileges.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, back in September or October when you were in the Shell filling station and Mrs. Oswald and the little girl here, June, and another lady happened to be there---that was the occasion when your husband was looking for the pickup truck--did either Mrs. Oswald get out of the car or did the other lady get out of the automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was standing beside the car, now, I don't even remember the baby being there being in the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald was standing beside the car?
Mrs. HUNTER. Standing beside the car.
Mr. McKENZIE. And where was the other lady standing?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went either to the restroom or into the filling station. She wasn't out there--I never did say anything to this woman.
Mr. McKENZIE. The other woman--
Mrs. HUNTER. Do you remember anyone saying anything to you about a Salvation Army woman?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Salvation Army woman? I don't know what the Salvation Army is.
Mrs. HUNTER. This woman was dressed and I told her I would get her, I would get her a contact. She dresses in these regular white uniforms most of the time?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the time this lady claims that she saw me, I was not interested in any help or I did not need any help for the baby from the standpoint of social help, because we already made all the preparations for the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, when you say you saw these people at the service station, you indicated that the other lady got out of the car, and even though you didn't see her face, you did see her standing in the area of the service station; is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. You see, we had drove up where he 'had some used cars and she was there by herself because
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "she" you have to say who.
Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. HUNTER. And I don't know whether she had got out .to go into the restroom or what, but that's where she seen me instead of in Richardson.
Mr. LIEBELER. My question is, did you see the other lady standing in the area of the filling station?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't see the other woman--I really couldn't tell you what she looked like. I just seen a woman go into the filling station or into the restroom and I presumed it was who she was with, because she said--she didn't ask for any help and I couldn't understand her and she couldn't understand me, you see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, I want to try and find out--you said you saw this other woman walk into the restroom?
Mrs. HUNTER. I seen a woman--I don't know whether it was the one that was driving the car she was in or not, because she was standing beside the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's what I'm trying to get to--was this a skinny woman, a fat woman, a tall or short woman--what did she look like as you saw her walk into the restroom?
Mrs. HUNTER. The woman, I don't believe she was quite as heavy as I am and a little bit taller.
Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?
Mrs. HUNTER. Five feet two.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she's just a little ,bit taller than you?
Mrs. HUNTER. I would say ,this woman was taller than I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much?
Mrs. HUNTER. About 5 feet 4.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 feet 4 or 5 feet 5---how much do you think she weighed?
Mrs. HUNTER. I would say about 135.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anybody else around the automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it?
Mrs. HUNTER. When we got in our car and left she was still standing beside the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald was?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I wouldn't say as to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible, was it a Volkswagen, was it a station wagon, or was it an ordinary American-type car?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was just a car--but I wouldn't go back to it, because it didn't dawn on me for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a station wagon?
Mrs. HUNTER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you saw Mrs. Oswald, or who you think was Mrs. Oswald, in ,the Station there that day before you saw her in the Furniture Mart; is that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you saw her in the Furniture Mart, did you recognize her?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; it didn't dawn on me I didn't think a thing in the world about it.
Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, do you remember how I was dressed and was I pregnant at that time?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did I have on?
Mrs. HUNTER. All I know is you had on a jacket.
*Mrs. OSWALD. What color?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it wasn't red.
Mrs. OSWALD. Was it blue?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was more of a rose.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I had a rose short one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before you had seen Mrs. Oswald several times.
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the other times you saw her.
Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen her in Minyards Grocery Store.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is that?
Mr. McKENZIE. [Spelling] M-i-n-y-a-r-d-s.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?
Mrs. HUNTER. On Irving Boulevard.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Grocery store?
Mrs. HUNTER. And this drive-in grocery that I was talking about, if you remember there I think I had seen her there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the gas station and the furniture shop and the grocery store, did you ever see her any place else?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about her, but she had ribbons in here hair.
*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I have?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long, and I remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was at the furniture store.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the pigtail?
Mrs. HUNTER. What I can remember about her was the sad expression in her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else with Mrs. Oswald when you saw her in the grocery store?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or who was with her or nothing about it. I just remember her.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just remember her?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. Maybe it was somebody Just like me?
Mr. LIEBELER. How is it you remember seeing Mrs. Oswald when you have no recollection of who she was with or anything like that?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her eyes--I would know her on the street by her eyes if I was to meet her.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody knows my eyes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about you, Mrs. Whitworth, do you recognize these people as the people that were in your store that day?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, like I say, she has changed, but I am definitely sure they were in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as you sit here and look at these children who have been here this morning with Mrs. Oswald, do you recognize them?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have grown, and according to their ages and all--they were there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but that they were there. I believe it might have been, if she could remember, probably about her, of course, the first time after she had this new baby over here, her husband told me Lee Harvey Oswald told me that the baby was 2 weeks old and we discussed my grandchildren about the same age and they were boys. She probably didn't understand our discussion but we discussed these two children and my two grandchildren.
Mrs. OSWALD. I remember Lee exchanging conversations with a woman, but she was a younger woman and they were talking about the baby.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That was me, probably, but my hair might not be as gray as it is today and I probably have changed, too, but we discussed the babies and trading babies, you know, we was just joking, in fact, in fact I was, anyway, and he said he had hoped to have had a boy when he had the two girls, and we were hoping for a little granddaughter. We talked and she walked off. She never would--she never offered to show us the baby or anything and that's what impressed me more than anything else. Otherwise, I probably would have never paid any attention to them being in the store or anything else, but it was that special talking to him and I was to expedite just about like he was on television one time. It was cool that day and you had to have on--it was probably the 4th, 5th, or 6th of November.
*Mrs. OSWALD. That sounds just about like Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Marina made that answer when Mrs. Whitworth remarked that Lee said that he hoped to have a boy and, isn't that right, Marina?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't hear this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because he did want that?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, did he do something unusual--did he drive up at the store and park the car and get out?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say what he did do, but I saw the car come up and I think it was his own car, and I think that it was his own car and I know the door that he came in and I know he went back to the car ,and she came in, but she didn't come in the same door as he did. Whether he drove that car up there, I won't say he didn't and I won't say he drove it off.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that he got into the car and drove it off going the wrong way down the street, as a matter of fact?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I think, really, that Mrs. Hunter and I had talked about it, but I'm not going to say that she described the car at all, but all I wane to say is that they were in that store that day, you know, they've got four of them and I didn't see anyone else in the car and I didn't think you could do it, and if I did at that time, why it was maybe because I had talked to Mrs. Hunter previously about that, because the car did come up there to the gate and they would make a U-turn and go back down the way--back down that one way, and Mrs. Hunter would notice it, where I wouldn't pay too much attention about what happened every day.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't recall whether he drove the car or not?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It has been a long time and I don't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell me yesterday or the day before yesterday that you saw this car drive up in front and the man get out, and did it appear to you that he was driving the car?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him get out of the car and come to the west door; absolutely.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the car did he get out from; do you remember?
Did you see anybody else in the car at all, besides this woman and the two children?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention at that time that they were in the car, you know, when they first drove up but I didn't know that they come in the car and they had to get out of a car to come in there; they wouldn't have walked up.
Mr. McKENZIE. Why do you say they wouldn't have walked up there, Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, they would have had to have lived pretty close and around there and I had never seen them come in there before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, not until after all this happened--the assassination and everything--and they lived pretty close around there. I had never seen Mrs. Paine walk by there before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I asked them when all this happened and everything. If they lived out where they did, it would have been too far from my store to have walked up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression at that time that they were living together; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he told me they were living in an apartment, and I asked him.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Living in an apartment?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I said, "You are living in an apartment," and wanting to move out, you know, and he said, "Yes." So, I just assumed when people come in wanting to buy furniture and they are going to need some, that they are either in an apartment fixing to move out, or need some they are going to need some and they are fixing to move out, but he wasn't quite ready then--he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically ask him or did he specifically tell you that they were living in an apartment together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I asked him--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that they were living in an apartment together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have learned since that time that they weren't living-together; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall in talking to this lady if she had a tooth missing in front? One or two teeth missing?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't recall that--all I noticed--she didn't even utter a word--I didn't notice it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you remember if she had a tooth or two missing?
*Mrs. OSWALD. You know me; you know me?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald has indicated to Mrs. Hunter that Mrs. Hunter had said she remembered talking to Marina. Now, what about you, Mrs. Hunter; do you remember whether she had any teeth missing?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't remember anything about her teeth because she would have to almost move her lips, you know, if you didn't pay close attention, now, that was just a very few seconds with her at this station- very few. The only thing that I caught was right here [indicating].
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, don't you think you would notice it if somebody had a tooth out in front of their mouth?
Mrs. HUNTER. Not necessarily, because I don't pay no attention to nobody--only their eyes and their feet.
Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, did you at any time go with Lee and the children when Lee had something with him wrapped in a brown sack that he took into a store?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It would be about this long [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating about how long?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say about 15 or 18 inches.
Mrs. OSWALD. I would have noticed if he had had an object with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, you testified that when this man came in the store he did have an object with him about 15 inches long wrapped in brown paper; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part for a gun; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you know he had some part of the gun wrapped in this package; didn't he?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. a. And you also testified that this man asked about a part for a gun; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that he had some part of the gun wrapped in this package; isn't that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand that, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. Even if he did, I-would not have understood what he was saying ,because I simply did not know the language, but I don't recall him having any object in his hands such as that referred to here.
Mr. LIEBELER. At any time; is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; at no time.
Mr. McKENZIE. She is saying he went back to the car and got this part?
Mr. LIEBELER. What were you saying, Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He went back to the car and took whatever he had in his hand--he must have put it in the car, because I never noticed any more; she came in, you know, but he came back in the store before she did, because she followed him in and in the store I don't see why that she couldn't remember it, it's different, you know, from other stores that you would go in where you bought soft goods.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say he brought this package into the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. McKenzie, do you wish to inquire as to this package?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Whitworth, when this man whom you have identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, whom you know now was Lee Harvey Oswald, from his pictures in the paper, came into your store, you stated that he had a package in his hand about 15 to 18 inches long; is that correct?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I saw him.
Mr. McKENZIE. I say, you had seen that and stated that he had such a package?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him; yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. How was the package wrapped?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Loosely in brown paper and you know, it didn't have any strings on it, as far as I remember--it was loosely tied.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, was it a package in a bag?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he held it with one hand.
Mr. McKENZIE. He held it with one hand?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did it look like a piece of pipe or did it look like a gun stock, or did it look like a piece of wood or what did it look like that was in the package?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see it.
Mr. McKENZIE. How big around was the package?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't large I'd say it might have been this big [indicating].
Mr. McKENZIE. You are making a sign with your hands there, with both hands--
Mrs. WHITWORTH. What is that about 2 or 3 inches in diameter?
Mr. McKENZIE. All right.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. And then it was some 15 or 18 inches long.
Mr. McKENZIE. So, the package that he had was 2 or 3 inches in diameter and approximately 18 inches long; is that right?
Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen to 18 inches long.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.
Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say to you when he came into the store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He asked me if I had this particular part, some particular part, but not knowing about guns, I didn't have it. I don't remember it, you know, what he asked for.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, if you will, state for the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked me if I had this part, whatever it was, pertaining to a gun.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what part was it?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know--because I don't know anything about guns.
Mr. McKENZIE. Can you state it in his words?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I cannot.
Mr. McKENZIE. You cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just what your recollection is of what he said?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say to you then--give us your best recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask a question, if I may. Mrs. Whitworth, isn't it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for; a Miss Campbell or Mrs. Campbell?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. Mrs. Hunter and I discussed it afterwards, and I think that she might know more about guns and she said it was a plunger, but I'm not sure I might have told them that I thought it was a plunger, but I don't remember.
Mr. McKENZIE. And you did not tell the reporter what you thought 'it was; is that right?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't--I don't believe I ever made the statement that I knew exactly what it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a plunger; isn't that a fact?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe Mrs. Hunter said that. She talked to the same reporter--I don't know what it was, because I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter make a tape recording of the conversation?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. The reporter made a tape recording of my conversation--part of it, I would say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was to be used with or for?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; because I didn't ask him.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you know, that part. He came in because I had a gunsmith sign on the street and there had been one there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me that.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that he came in because you had a gunsmith sign on the door?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I presume that because he asked for a gun part.
Mr. LIEBELER. And what part did he ask for?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know it was a part for a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I just knew it was--whatever he asked for was, you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, I don't know. I didn't pay that much attention to it because I had people coming in every day asking for something for a gun.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you it was a part for a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I knew that it was at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that it was?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. That it was?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention guns?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it--when I told him I didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was no longer there and when I told him we no longer had a gunsmith we didn't talk about what he wanted any more.
Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, and that's based on your conversation with Mrs. Hunter, the part that he asked for was a plunger?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, to the best of my recollection it was, but I wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for as being a part of a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. He didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he, or did he?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked in such a way that I knew he was seeking the gun shop and not the furniture store.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the word "gun" ever used?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was, because I told him the gunsmith had moved.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say then, please, ma'am?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He turned around and he looked at me. He was standing practically in the front or in the middle of the store and he turned and I had furniture all around me dinette suites over on this side and there was living room furniture to this side, and in front of him there was living room furniture and bedroom furniture and he said, "You have furniture?" I said, "Yes."
He said, "I'm going to need some in about 2 weeks," and I said, "All right, I'll be glad to show you some."
He turns and walks out the door that he came in and took whatever he had in his hand back in the car and that's when Mrs. Oswald followed him back in and he got back in the store before she did.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did you hear them talking together?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never did hear her utter one word.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he say anything to her?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He never said anything to her other than he might have glanced at her and I thought that they were exchanging glances, you know. She didn't utter a word.
Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't utter a word to her?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not to her--but to me.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, he said he was going to need some furniture in approximately 2 weeks?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did you ask him where he was living?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him if he was living at an apartment and he said, "Yes."
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where he was moving to?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he hadn't got that place yet.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ask you if you delivered?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; we didn't get that far along.
Mr. McKENZIE. I see. He didn't like the piece of furniture that you showed to him, is that it
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably didn't have what he was looking for. We talked about not having it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, in any event, he didn't seek to buy any of the furniture that you showed him?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did he state what he was looking for, did he tell you what he was looking for?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him what kind of furniture that he was looking, and I suggested furnitures to him if he bought new furniture. I said, "Do You like Early American, or do you like Danish Modern?" And we exchanged those words and he never uttered what he liked or anything. He didn't say what he liked.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, there had been a gun shop in that particular location before you moved in with your furniture store?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I leased one corner of my store to a gunsmith.
Mr. McKENZIE. And what was his name?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. His name was Warren Graves.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still operate a gun shop?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he doesn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live in the Irving area?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He still lives in Irving.
Mr. McKENZIE. Had you had any previous experience with guns?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Other than just seeing guns in that little corner of the building, it seems like, and you know, hearing conversations on guns, but I knew nothing about guns.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, did you know anything about the various nomenclature or the various parts of a gun?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't.
Mr. McKENZIE. But you did recognize that a plunger was a part of a gun when this man came in?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, in the way that he asked for it, I knew that it was a gun part that he wanted because I didn't have it.
Mr. McKENZIE. In what way did he ask for it, explain what you mean by that?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. As well as I can remember, I told him we didn't have a gunsmith and he asked for this part and I don't remember really just what he asked for, but whatever it was, it led me to know that he wanted a gunsmith, which we didn't have.
Mr. McKENZIE. Were you in the front of the store when he came in?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I was in the cash stand.
Mr. McKENZIE. Was Mrs. Hunter still sitting there on the platform chair?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was sitting there in the front.
Mr. McKENZIE. And how far away was she from you when he came in?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I was behind the stand, which I guess that was probably 4 or 5 feet in squares and I would have had to have gotten out of the stand and walked clear around and Mrs. Hunter, I imagine, was probably 8 feet from me.
Mr. McKENZIE. Was she as close to you as I am now--just directly across, I mean?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. About the same distance that we are apart now?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a counter between us.
Mr. McKENZIE. And we are about 8 feet apart now, aren't we?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. When the man came in, was there anyone else in the store other than Mrs. Hunter and yourself?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't believe there was anyone in the store but Mrs. Hunter and myself. Now, there was probably someone on the outside.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, if I may direct this question to Mrs. Hunter; Mrs. Hunter, do you recall any of the conversation that you heard Mrs. Whitworth testify about this morning?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when he drove up in the car and I thought it was my friends from Houston and when I seen it wasn't, I sat back down in the chair and he went down to the door on that end of the building and went in and he asked her, he says, "Where is your gunsmith?"
I remember that and he had something--I won't say just what it was, because I wasn't particularly interested. I wasn't in her being down there at the time. She told him that the gunsmith was moved--that he wasn't there, and she showed him down the street where to go to.
Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it Was back down east on Irving Boulevard.
Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a gunsmith or a sports shop or something back down there.
Mrs. HUNTER. There was a sport shop down there where she showed him to go. I remember that much of it.
Mr. McKENZIE. You said this man got out of the car and came to the other door, the door back to the back?
Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came to the west door.
Mrs. HUNTER. I believe if I could draw a picture of it I could explain it better that way.
[The witness proceeded to draw while testifying.] There's a partition right here and there are table and chairs right back in here, and over here is where her telephone is and where her table and there's a little counter right back in here, right back down this way, and right back here was the gunsmith where he had that leased, and all of this back here was furniture and this partition over here these little tables and chairs over here that looked kinda like a care where you would sit, at the tables and all. Over here, all there was was used clothes and things.
Mr. McKENZIE. Where is the door?
Mrs. HUNTER. Now, this is a door where I was sitting in the chair right here looking out and he come in by this door right over here and come up to where her counter was. I was sitting right here in the chair and she comes back out here and looks down this way and showed him which way to go to where this gunsmith was and when he goes back to the car and put what he had in his hand--he went back to the car for the purpose of that, and when he come back in, he come back in this way. When she got out with the children, she come in this door right here that I had got up and opened after I sat down there.
Mr. McKENZIE. That would be the east door?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, yes; I guess so, and she walked on around and I just sat back down and I didn't pay her any attention or anything and they had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that, and that is the only thing that I heard the woman say.
Well, he goes back and goes back and gets in the car and she followed him out--she put the little girl in the car, then she got in the car, and he didn't offer to help her no way putting the babies in the car and he was talking to her and looking back down this way and he turned and when he pointed, I said, "You can't go back down that way, it's a one way street. You will have to go up here to the red light and turn to your left and come back around."
Mr. McKENZIE. When you told him that, where were you standing?
Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing right in this door here.
Mr. McKENZIE. Right at the curb?
Mrs. HUNTER. No; the car was--let's say it was about like this, because there is a porch or a thing with a top over it, you know, and he catercornered down this way and I was right over here [indicating].
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time when you were standing in the doorway and he had gotton in the car and you told him he could not go that way, where was Mrs. Oswald sitting?
Mrs. HUNTER. She was in the car by him and the little girl was standing up in the seat between them and she had the tiny baby in her hands.
Mr. McKENZIE. And was it a two-door automobile or a four-door automobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say as to that, but I believe it was a two-door, but I wouldn't swear to it.
Mr. McKENZIE. And he was behind the wheel?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. And she was sitting next to him?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. With the child between them?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. And there was no one else in the car other than the baby?
Mrs. HUNTER. If it was, they was down in the floorboard of the car and when he started out, he pulled out back that way, and I said, "Don't go back that way, it's a one-way street." I said, "Go down to the red light."

Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say then?
Mrs. HUNTER. He didn't say anything; he didn't thank me nor nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. But from where you were standing you could see him drive the automobile out into Irving Boulevard, going down to the next red light where he made a turn and drove out of sight; isn't that right?
Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he went down Irving Boulevard--I told him to go to the red light, but she wasn't interested in what he was going to buy at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west?
Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was driving the right way down the street?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could this car have been an Oldsmobile?
Mrs. HUNTER. No, sir; it was a Ford--it was just like the one that my friends had in Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a foreign car of any kind?

Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Ford?
Mrs. HUNTER. It was a 1957--I think it was a 1957 Ford instead of a 1958.
Mr. McKENZIE. Blue and white?
Mrs. HUNTER. Blue and white yes, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Blue on the bottom and white on the top?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes, sir; I think I've got a picture of the car that my friends--the one that I was waiting for. Could I ask her a question?
[Addressing Marina Oswald.] Don't you have a rinse on your hair now?
*Mrs. OSWALD. A rinse yes. My hair is dark--not too dark.
Mrs. HUNTER. A dirty blonde.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, thank you.
Mrs. HUNTER. Like his [indicating Mr. Liebeler].
Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. Mrs. Whitworth, we certainly do thank you and Mrs. Hunter, we certainly do thank you very much.
Mrs. HUNTER. How soon are you going to be through with us--the reason I want to know--I am going to be out of town next week. [Addressing Marina Oswald.] It's nice I met you in person now and your babies are very sweet.

(At this point Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter left the hearing room.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina, do you remember a blue and white car?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--what kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what kind of car Mr. Paine had?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't.
Mr. McKENZIE. What kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that either, but all the time Mrs. Paine, she take me to the store.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gregory, what do you do in Fort Worth?
Mr. GREGORY. I am a petroleum engineer.
Mr. McKENZIE. And are you on your own over there?
Mr. GREGORY. Well, half of my time is my own and the other half of my time is with a company on salary, and I am chairman of an engineering committee.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you have previously testified, Marina, that the only time Lee came up to the Paine's, except on the weekends, in Irving, was on Thursday night, November 21, 1963?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the 5th or the 3d of November or September?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I was trying to figure out what day in the week that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this store it would be Wednesday or Thursday, but Lee was never in Irving on Wednesday or Thursday at any time; is that right.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time when he came to see me the night before the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask Mrs. Paine. You know, if he has a job--maybe he don't have a job then?
Mr. McKENZIE. At the time when he didn't have a job, did he come?
*Mrs. OSWALD. November he had a job.
Mr. McKENZIE. But when he didn't have a job, did he come out there during the week other than weekends.
Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 2 days on one occasion during the week when he had no job.
*Mrs. OSWALD. He had job at that time in November.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, before Rachel was born, did he come during the week?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I remember that only once he came only once before Rachel was born during the week.
Mr. McKENZIE. After Rachel was born at Parkland Hospital, did he come during the week up until the time he got a job?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't come to Irving during the week at any time after Rachel was born, as a matter of fact, except on Thursday night?
Mrs. OSWALD. Rachel was born either Saturday night or Sunday.
Mr. LIEBELER. October the 20th?
*Mrs. OSWALD. When Rachel was born?
Mr. GREGORY. She wants to say what day of the week--it was either the 19th or 20th of October, but she wants to know the day of the week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday.
Mrs. OSWALD. He was at home the weekend before Rachel was born. He sent me to the hospital Sunday night at 9 o'clock.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he go working the next morning and he come to see Ruth Paine and she take him to the hospital to see me and baby and he spent the night in her house.
Mr. LIEBELER. What day did Lee come to see you in the hospital, do you remember?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. And on Monday night he stayed at Ruth Paine's house; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you went home the next morning?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; to Ruth Paine's. Lee was at work and Ruth Paine take me from the hospital.
Mr. McKENZIE. You were in the hospital Sunday, Monday, and left Tuesday?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I was just Sunday night--I was one and a half days--34 hours or 36 hours or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that on Monday, October 21, Lee came to Irving after work?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And came to the hospital to see you with Mrs. Paine?
*Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Paine.
Mr. LIEBELER. And stayed at Mrs. Paine's house that night and went back to work on Tuesday morning?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he did not come to the hospital at any other time or to take you home; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After Rachel was born and after Lee had been there on Monday to see you, did he come back to Irving at any time during the week except the night before the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; he came to Irving only the weekends--only on weekends.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, before the time that Rachel was born, you said that he came to Irving during the week and spent 2 days before he got his job; was that just after he came back from Mexico?
Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 1 day in Irving after he came back from Mexico, and the following day he went to look for work and he was looking for work all week long and returned to Irving on Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come to work during the week at any time after he got his job and up until Rachel was born, except on weekends?
Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember--not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's take a short recess for lunch, and we will resume at 1:30 p.m. (Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)


Testimony Of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald Resumed

The proceeding was reconvened at 1:50 p.m.

Mr. LIEBELER. You previously told the Commission that Lee Oswald prepared a notebook in which he kept plans and notes about his attack on General Walker; is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. I saw this book only after the attempt on Walker's life. He burned it or disposed of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when you first saw the notebook?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after this happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the notebook 3 days after it had happened?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to see it then?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he was destroying it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only time you ever saw it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I saw on several occasions that he was writing something in the book, but he was hiding it from me and he was locking it in his room.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually lock the door to his room when he left the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. The door to his room could be locked only from the inside and he was locking the door when he was writing in the book, otherwise, he was hiding it in some secret place and he warned me not to mess around and look around his things. He asked me not to go into his room and look around.
Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him writing in this book before the night that he shot at General Walker?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Not before the night.
Mr. McKENZIE. After?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; not before--1 month before, but not every day, you know, sometimes. I saw him writing on several occasions in that book prior to the attempt on Walker's life, only I did not know what he was writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you could have gone into this room to look at the book, you did not do so, because Lee had told you not to; is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he forbade me looking around in his room, and so I did not see the book or look at it.
Mr. LIEBELER. But 3 days after he shot at General Walker, you saw him destroy the book; is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did he destroy it?
Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the apartment house on Neeley.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where in the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it with matches over a wash bowl in the bathroom.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you first became aware of this when you smelled it burning; is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see the book, but I saw him writing in this book several times, but after he burns the book he told me what was in that book and he showed me several photographs. Before he burned the book, he showed me several photographs that were in the book. I asked him what the pictures were and he said, "Well, this one is the picture of the house of General Walker's--his residence."
Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture was pasted in the notebook; is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; it was loose in the book--I really don't remember.
Mr. McKENZIE. Establish what kind of book it was and the size of it.
*Mrs. OSWALD. The size it looked like this size of paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was a book something like the reporter is using?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; a legal size paper--it was a legal size notebook--this size.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, the notebook was about the same size as a legal size pad; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. [nodding head for an affirmative reply].
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Lee when you saw him destroying this book about why he prepared it and why he left it there in the apartment when he went to shoot General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not. No; I never asked him why he left it in the apartment, why he left his book in the apartment while he went to shoot General Walker. I did not ask him why he left it in the apartment. I asked him what for was he making all these entries in the book and he answered that he wanted to leave a complete record so that all the details would be in it. He told me that these entries consisted of the description of the house of General Walker, the distances, the location, and the distribution of windows in it.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he want to leave this record for?
Mrs. OSWALD. All these details--all these records, that he was writing it either for his own use so that he would know what to do when the time came to shoot General Walker. I am guessing that perhaps he did it to appear to be a brave man in case he were arrested', but that is my supposition. I was so afraid after this attempt on Walker's life that the police might come to the house. I was afraid that there would be evidence in the house such as this book.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Lee about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I say?
Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did he say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Both.
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that it is best not to have this kind of stuff in the house this book.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you tell him that?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the time he was destroying it--he showed me this book after this attempt on Walker's life, and I suggested to him that it would be awfully bad to keep a thing like that in the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first show it to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after the attempt--3 days after this attempt, he took the rifle from the house, took it somewhere and buried it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three days after the attempt?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that he actually took the rifle out of the house and took it away and hid it somewhere?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it.
Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on Wednesday.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday.
Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when Lee brought the rifle back home.
Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle back?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy the book?
Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he brought the rifle home.
Mr. LIEBELER. After he brought the rifle home, then, he showed you the book?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was not a good idea to keep this book?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then he burned the book?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he had not destroyed the book before he actually went to shoot General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. It never came to me, myself, to ask him that question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him take the pictures, the photographs, out of the book when he destroyed it?
Mrs. OSWALD. When I saw him burning the book--I'm not positive that he burned the photographs or not with the book. He retained the negatives and he preserved either the photographs themselves or the negatives. I know that they have the photographs and I don't know whether they got the originals or whether they made them from the negatives.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, when you say "they," Marina, who do you mean by "they?"
Mrs. OSWALD. FBI, Secret Service, and the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 5, which is a copy of one of the photographs that was found among these effects after the assassination.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that appear to be one of the photographs about which you were speaking?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure about that?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember when Lee showed me the picture that it was this.
Mrs. OSWALD. When I was first shown this picture, I remember that there was a license plate number on this car.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee showed you the picture, there was a license plate number on the car?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As shown in Commission Exhibit No. 5; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you look at this picture you see that there is a black mark on the back of this, do you know what makes that black mark?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; but I think when the Commission showed me this picture the number was there.
Mr. McKENZIE. License plate?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would have remembered this black spot if it were there at the time the Commission showed me this, or the FBI. When the FBI first showed me this photograph I remember that the license plate, the number of the license plate was on this car, was on the photograph.
*Mrs. OSWALD. It had the white and black numbers. There was no black spot that I see on it now. When Lee showed me this photograph there was the number on the license plate on this picture. I would have remembered it if there were a black spot on the back of the car where the license plate would be.
Mr. LIEBELER. The original of this picture, the actual photograph, has a hole through it. That's what makes this black spot.
*Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the negative?
Mr. GREGORY. This picture was made from the original photograph, rather than from a negative?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it's simply a picture of a picture.
Mrs. OSWALD. When the FBI and Lee showed me this particular picture--
*Mrs. OSWALD. Not this big size.
Mrs. OSWALD. This photograph--it was a smaller size.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. There was a license plate on this car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that very clearly?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee showed it to me, I remember very distinctly that there was a license plate on this car. When this business about General Walker came up I would have remembered this black spot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or the hole?
Mrs. OSWALD. Or the hole in the original--I would have remembered it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember, then, that the license plate was actually on that car when you saw the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. This black spot is so striking I would have remembered it if it were on the photograph that Lee showed me or the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right through the photograph.
Mrs. OSWALD. There was no hole in the original when they showed it to me I'm positive of it.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, let me ask her a question.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first time I saw a black spot or have heard about a hole in the original photograph.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Why does the Commission not ask me about this?
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, the Commission is asking you about it now, because Mr. Liebeler represents the Commission.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you--when Lee showed you this picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 5, had it been folded over?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did the car that appears in the picture, did it have a hole in the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. When the FBI or the Secret Service showed you this picture, had it been folded?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Who showed you the picture the FBI or the Secret Service or the Commission?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI first and then the Commission.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at the time the Commission showed you the picture in Washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the cat's license plate would be?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened to this picture, because when the Commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here.
Mrs. OSWALD. If there was a hole, I would have asked them right away why that hole is there or the black spot.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record, please.
(Discussion between Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Liebeler to the effect that the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print from the original photograph.)

Mr. McKENZIE. One more question--is this the first time that you have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the automobile?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; the first time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in it?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think of anything else about this Walker incident that you haven't already told the Commission that you think we should know that you can remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think I have told all I know about it--I can't remember anything else now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time, Marina, that Lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at General Walker he left all that incriminating evidence fight in the house so that if he had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for what he did. I had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised me. He may have wished to appear such a brave man or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be caught in connection with the Walker affair?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. I couldn't read his mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the picture that he asked you to take when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then autographed for June, do you think that was connected with the Walker thing at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, because it happened just before he went to shoot General Walker. Then, I asked him why he was taking this silly picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Militant?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The Militant.
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't attach any significance to what he said at the time, but he added, "That maybe some day June will remember me." He must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the Commission that in November 1962, you stayed with Anna Meller and with Mrs. Ford for 2 weeks?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 1 week.
Mr. LIEBELER. One week with each person?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I think maybe I was 3 days at Anna Meller's house- yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think you were with them altogether?
*Mrs. OSWALD. One week or 10 days.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you also told us that you went to Anna Meller's in a taxicab?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you separated from Lee at any other time in the fall of 1962 except this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. The only time I was separated from Lee, not because we quarreled, but because I lived with Elena Hall in Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went to Anna Meller's one night in a taxicab?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you bring any of the things for the baby, the furniture or your clothes or things like that to Anna Meller's?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. At no time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just take baby and bottle.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the next day, did you get anything over to the Meller's house the next day?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mrs. OSWALD. No; after a couple of days Anna Meller went and bought some diapers for the baby, then, I wanted to take my things away from Lee and George De Mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the things from the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you take the things then?
Mrs. OSWALD. To Anna Meller's house.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay at Anna Meller's house before Mohrenschildt brought the things there?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how long did you stay at Anna Meller's after De Mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to Mrs. Ford's?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Two more days.
Mr. LIEBELER. When De Mohrenschildt came and .took these things, they filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? There were quite a lot of things?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take these things from Anna Meller's over to the Fords' house?
Mrs. OSWALD. Only the bare necessities.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do with the other things that you had brought to Anna Meller's?
Mrs. OSWALD. They remained at Anna Meller's.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who took the things from Meller's to Ford's?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it George De Mohrenschildt?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day it was that De Mohrenschildt moved these things for you, what day of the week?
Mrs. OSWALD. The weekend--probably Sunday.
Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you first go to Anna Meller's; do you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
*Mrs. OSWALD. About 4 days before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee know .where you went the night you left him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first find out where you were?
Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt knew that I was at Anna Meller's and .he telephoned Lee, but he did not tell Lee where I was. He asked him to come to his house where I would also be at the time so that we could discuss the things.
Mr. LIEBELER. The day you went to Cake the things to Anna Meller's, De Mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. His wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you with him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And got these other things?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And left?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there when you came?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the three of you came to the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing happened except he was very angry and I took things.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not want me to leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was collecting things, so I don't know what transpired--I was busy. Lee was helping me to gather the things, because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee first said that he was going to tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went away?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; maybe that's George De Mohrenschildt's joke.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's what George De Mohrenschildt told the Commission.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt. I do not know whether Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt or not. I was busy gathering the things.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there appear to be an argument or a discussion between, Lee and De Mohrenschildt at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so--perhaps they were speaking together--talking English and I didn't understand them.
Mr. LIEBELER. How would they usually talk to each other--in Russian or in English?
Mrs. OSWALD. Both Russian and English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did George Bouhe have anything to do with your leaving Lee this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe told me that if I wanted to leave Lee, he would help me at first, provided I would not go back to Lee. Bouhe did not interfere into my and Lee's affairs, but he wanted to know if I wanted to leave him permanently, he would help me. He told me that if I wanted to leave him for good, then he would help me out, but not if I would go back to him because the second time nobody would help me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, you did later go back to Lee; didn't you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he's my husband.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it is also a fact that when you did, George Bouhe was displeased--unhappy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact he even asked you to give back to him the dictionary that he had given you; didn't he?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he helped you no more after that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt recalls this Sunday morning differently-he said that he came there with his wife and that you were still at the apartment with Lee, and that he and his wife came in and told Lee that they were going to take you away because he had been beating you in the past, and that he convinced you to leave and that you all left then that Sunday morning and he took you over to Meller's. He does not say you had previously gone to Meller's.
Mrs. OSWALD. That's not so. I was not at the apartment with Lee. I came that Sunday with the De Mohrenschildts to the apartment. I was at Anna Meller's and George De Mohrenschildt told me to be at his house at a certain hour, 10 o'clock, or sometime, and that Lee will come to his house, and Anna Meller took me. George Bouhe came to Anna Meller's and took me to George De Mohrenschildt's house and Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house in a bus.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday?
Mrs. OSWALD. That same Sunday.
Mr. McKENZIE. Later in the day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ten o'clock or eleven.
Mr. McKENZIE. And before you went to the apartment?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt go to the apartment together in George De Mohrenschildt's car?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember right now whether Lee left after this confrontation at De Mohrenschildt's house, whether Lee left first or whether we all left De Mohrenschildt's house together, but I do remember distinctly that I went in the car with George De Mohrenschildt and his wife. I did not go with Lee and so it is impossible that they came later.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened at De Mohrenschildt's house this morning--what was said there?
Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt was telling Lee that that was not the way to treat his wife and Lee begged me to stay with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's wife there at this time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did the meeting at De Mohrenschildt's house end; do you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not agree to go back with Lee and either Lee left by the bus first, or, I don't remember it clearly what happened.
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened--I don't remember if Lee goes with us or if he goes first.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that Lee was at the apartment on Elsbeth Street when you went there to get the clothes and things for the baby?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you came there, did he just help you load the things up?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be angry about anything?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was angry. That's why he helped me.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to go back to Lee, and that was when he came out to Anna Ray's and met you there?
Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me several times begging me to return and he came to Anna Ray's and he cried and you know a woman's heart--I went back to him. He said he didn't care to live if I did not return.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who paid the taxi fare when you went over to Anna Meller's the first time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The first time Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that some time in the spring of 1963, you, yourself, either threatened to or actually tried to commit suicide. Can you tell us about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Do I have the right now not to discuss that?
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't want to discuss that, certainly, but I really would like to have Lee's reaction to the whole thing. But if you don't want to tell us about it--all right.
Mrs. OSWALD. At my attempt at suicide, Lee struck me in the face and told me to go to bed and that I should never attempt to do that--only foolish people would do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you were going to do it, or did you actually try?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't tell him, but I tried.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't want to discuss it any further?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of Lee's diary?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes ;---I have that now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a copy of the diary before it was printed in the Dallas Morning News?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. You might also ask her if I had a copy of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. McKenzie had a copy of the diary?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--ask him. I don't know what you have in your office---I'm sorry.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let the record show that Mr. McKenzie does not have a copy of the diary, and that Mrs. Oswald states she did not have a copy of the diary prior to its being published by the Dallas Morning News, and for the purposes of the record the Life magazine and Time, Inc., first gave me a copy of the diary, and I in turn furnished a copy of the diary to Mrs. Oswald from the copy that was given to me by Time, Inc.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that now, you do have a copy of the diary; is this correct?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it was given to you by Mr. McKenzie after he got it from Time-Life, Inc.?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make an arrangement with Life magazine to give them permission to publish the diary?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; after it has been published in the newspapers. I, myself, would not have been willing for it to be published in the first place.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Life magazine pay you anything for the privilege of publishing the diary?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; $20,000. I would like to know where the Dallas Morning News got the diary.
Mr. LIEBELER. I can tell you this much, Mrs. Oswald, that the Dallas Morning News did not get a copy of the diary from the Commission. Other than that, I can't say anything.
Mrs. OSWALD. If it is possible, I would like to determine where they got it.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you enter into this arrangement with Life magazine and how did it come about, Mrs. Oswald; will you tell us?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what day--
Mr. McKENZIE. It was after it was published in the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in stating that the transaction was negotiated between representatives of Life magazine and your attorney, Mr. William A. McKenzie? An attorney here in Dallas?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
Mr. McKENZIE. I have a couple of questions. Marina, there is a difference, is there not, in your mind between a Marxist and a Communist?
*Mrs. OSWALD. What?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never was interested in this so I don't know--it makes me no difference.
Mr. McKENZIE. A Communist ordinarily is known as a party member; is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. A Communist does not necessarily have to be a member of the party. People that believe in communism do not necessarily have a party card. The fact is that a Communist is not necessarily a member of the party. He may be a Communist by his choice but not necessarily a member of the party.
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Lee was a Marxist by his choice; is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he thought.
Mr. McKENZIE. That's all.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was just a sick person. He didn't know himself what he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald, as we discussed this morning, we want to go out to Irving and all look at the store and see if it refreshes your recollection as to whether or not you were there, so at this time we will adjourn the deposition, to be resumed out at the location of this store in Irving, if that is agreeable with counsel for Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. McKENZIE. It is agreeable.
(At this point the proceedings of this deposition were adjourned and Messrs. Liebeler and McKenzie, Marina Oswald, the Reporter, Odell Oliver, and Secret Service Agents John Joe Howlett and Forrest Sorrels in charge of the Dallas Secret Service office traveled to Irving, walked through the store heretofore referred to, departed the same and while Standing in front of the store the following proceedings were had:)

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we are resuming the deposition in front of 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., and the record will indicate that Mr. McKenzie and Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Howlett, the Court Reporter and I walked inside of the building here at 149 East Irving Boulevard and walked around inside and outside, and this is at 3:45 p.m., in an effort to refresh Mrs. Oswald's recollection as to whether or not she has ever been in this store.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had a chance to go through the store, Marina?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this is the first time.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the first time you have been here?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have now looked at the outside of the store and looked through the inside?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are quite sure you have never been here before?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sure I never was here before I am quite sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you heard this morning from Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's-right. She told how I was dressed with a rose jacket--that's true I had a rose jacket.
Mr. LIEBELER. She may have seen you somewhere?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I never was here maybe she saw me on the street somewhere. She said it looked like she saw me someplace else and that's the reason why I wanted to see rifts store, but maybe I have forgotten by now--
Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at 149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie?
Mr. McKENZIE. No.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't recall it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition.