Mr. KNUDSEN
Stenographic Transcript Of
HEARINGS

Before The
John F. Kennedy Subcomittee
of the
SELECT COMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Washington, D.C.
August 11, 1978
 
Alderson Reporting Company, Inc.
Official Reporters
300 Seventh St., S.W., Washington, D.C.


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EXECUTIVE SESSION

FRIDAY, AUGUST 11, 1978

U.S. House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on the Assassina-
tion of John F. Kennedy
of the Select Committee on
Assassinations,
Washington, D.C.

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:35 a.m. on the third floor, Annex No. 2, Present: Donald A. Purdy and Mark Flanigan.

The REPORTER - Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do.


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STATEMENT OF ROBERT L. KNUDSEN
Mr. PURDY - Good morning. My name is Donald A. Purdy, Jr. I am Staff Counsel to the House Select Committee on Assassinations. We are now in House Annex No. 2 in Washington, D.C. and the date is August 11th, 1978 and the time is 9:35 a.m. Present are Mr. Robert Knudsen, Mark Flanigan of our staff, and myself. Mr. Knudsen, pursuant to House Resolution 222 and Committee Rule 4, I am a designated counsel, empowered to take statements under oath, and you have been previously sworn here today. For the record, please state your name and address?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Robert L. Knudsen, 3712 Woodburn Road, Anabel, Virginia.
Mr. PURDY - Your phone number?
Mr. KNUDSEN - 280-3226.
Mr. PURDY - Do you understand that this testimony you are about to give is being given voluntarily?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - You are not under a subpoena, is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - You recognize that you have the right to have an attorney present?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - You have decided you do not want one?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.


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Mr. PURDY - Do you Understand that any time during the questioning you can refuse to answer specific questions.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - You also may terminate the deposition at any time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - You also recognize that the fact that you do not have an attorney does not mean you cannot bring one in during the deposition?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is right.
Mr. PURDY - I have given you copies of the Committee Rules and House Resolutions 222 and 433 and 760 for you to read and also I have pointed out to you Committee Rule No. 4. Have you had a chance to read that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - As you can see, the deposition is being trans- cribed. We will have a copy of this deposition made and provide you with a copy so you can read it and make any corrections, typographical or transitional changes that you feel are appropri- ate.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - Could you please state for us what your position was during the early 1960's?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was a White House photographer.
Mr. PURDY - During what years did you hold that position?


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Mr. KNUDSEN - 1958 to 1974. Nr. Purdy. Were you a member of a staff, or did you have a staff under you?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Well, it varied with the time, 1958 through 1963, I operated more or less on my own in the Navy, Chief Photographer. I was operating out of the Naval Aide's Office. However, I took my orders and requests directly from the President's secretary.
Mr. PURDY - Who was that at that time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Evelyn Lincoln during the Kennedy assassina- tion, during the Kennedy Administration. During the Eisenhower Administration in the late 50's, the orders were related to the Naval Aide. In `58 and `59, I took orders from the Naval Aide.
Mr. PURDY - During the Kennedy Administration, did you work under another White House photographer, or did you have a staff under you, or did you work by yourself?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Well, there were two of us, myself and Cecil Stughon. He more or less covered the First Lady's activities; I covered the President's activities.
Mr. PURDY - During what years did you cover the President's activities?
Mr. KNUDSEN - From his Inauguration right through the assassination and the funeral.
Mr. PURDY - How do you spell the last name of the other photographer?


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Mr. KNUDSEN - S-t-u-g-h-o-n.
Mr. PURDY - Your responsibilities were for the President and not for the First Lady?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct. I photographed the President's activities and appointments and social functions.
Mr. PURDY - When did you first become aware of the existence of photographs of the autopsy of President Kennedy?
Mr. KNUDSEN - The morning following the autopsy, Dr. Berkley -- to the best of my knowledge, Dr. Berkley had the film holders in a brown paper bag and handed them to me. Jim Fox, the Secret Service expert, was told to go over and develop them and see that they were secure at all times.
Mr. PURDY - Who gave you those orders?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I believe Dr. Berkley at that time. He said to develop them and see that they were secure. Jim Fox was right there and the two of us went over to do the developing.
Mr. PURDY - Did Mr. Fox have some specific responsibilities relative to the White House photographers' office? Is that why he worked with you?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Jim Fox was the Secret Service photographer.
Mr. PURDY - Had you worked closely with him before?
Mr. KNUDSEN - On occasion, we had.
Mr. PURDY - Could you describe for us your involvement in the transfer of the films over to where they were going to be processed, and what role you played in the processing?


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Mr. KNUDSEN - Jim and I got into the White House staff car to go over to the Naval Photographic Center. They were black and white and color. I took the black and white in one dark room and gave the color -- I believe it was Vince Mendona who took the color into the adjoining color dark room so we could process simultaneously. So, while Jim Fox stood outside to see that we were not disturbed --
Mr. PURDY - You processed the black and whites?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - You processed it at the Naval Photographic Center, or Processing Center?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Naval Photographic Center.
Mr. PURDY - Did anyone help you process those?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - You were in the room completely by yourself?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is right.
Mr. PURDY - Were you present during the processing of the color films?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. I was in the black and white dark room processing and the color was in the next room being processed.
Mr. PURDY - It is your recollection that Lt. Vince Mendona processed the color?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I believe Vince did. I will not swear to that.


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Mr. PURDY - You believe --
Mr. KNUDSEN - Vince could have handed it to one of the technicians and had him do it. I do not know. I was in a hurry to get it done, so I went right in the dark room and started processing.
Mr. PURDY - To the best of your knowledge, James Fox stood outside and was in neither dark room?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is right.
Mr. PURDY - You processed the black and white film holders, is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - Were any of the film holders blank on either or both sides?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No black and whites. I have been thinking about it. There could have been an unexposed sheet. In the back of my mind, there is something about an unexposed sheet of the color film. No empty holders.
Mr. PURDY - Unexposed sheet of color film?
Mr. KNUDSEN - In the back of my mind it seems there might have been one, but we accounted for that by bringing the blank sheet with us. In other words, we brought a sheet of film for -- there are two sheets back for every holder.
Mr. PURDY - One of the sheets, was it overexposed or under- exposed, the one that was blank?
Mr. KNUDSEN - If it was blank, I would say it probably was


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not exposed. All of the other exposures were good exposures.
Mr. PURDY - It is your recollection that it was blank?
Mr. KNUDSEN - If there was a missing negative, it was a completely unexposed piece of film.
Mr. PURDY - That was among the color film holders?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is a possibility. I would not say there was one. In the back of my mind there seems to be one piece of film that was without image.
Mr. PURDY - It is your specific recollection at this time that there were no empty black and white film holders?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - It is also your recollection that there were no blank images on any of the black and white film holders?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - It is also your recollection if there was a blank film in one of the color film holders, you retained it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Very definitely. We would not destroy anything
Mr. PURDY - What did you do with these materials?
Mr. KNUDSEN - After they were dry, I took them back to the White House. Right offhand, I do not recall how long it was until a decision was made for seven sets of prints to be made.
Mr. PURDY - Approximately how long after the autopsy were these films developed? Was it the morning after, as you said before?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.


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Mr. PURDY - It was also -- when that day did you return?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Developing them?
Mr. PURDY - Yes.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Developing takes -- the film drying, and all, an hour and a half, two hours. I would say that we were gone less than two hours.
Mr. PURDY - Is it your recollection that you returned them in the morning, or the afternoon that day?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I could not tell you, because I had been up all night. From the assassination right on, we worked right on through that night through the following day and the next night. Hours, I could not tell you.
Mr. PURDY - Where did you take the developed negatives?
Mr. KNUDSEN - The developed negatives went back, were retained by the Secret Service until we made prints.
Mr. PURDY - You returned them to the Secret Service?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes. After we developed them, we took them back to the west wing of the White House to the Secret Service office.
Mr. PURDY - Did you turn them over, or were you present when they were turned over to some other Secret Service personnel, other than James Fox?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Jim Fox and I were together until we got back to the White House. Then the Secret Service -- to the best of my recollection, they were in Jim's hands when we went out of the


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staff car to go to the Secret Service.
Mr. PURDY - Who did he give them to?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not recall.
Mr. PURDY - Did he give them to Mr. Balk?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not recall who it was.
Mr. PURDY - Who was his superior at that time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not know.
Mr. PURDY - Under whose orders were you operating when you took the film to be processed and then returned it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Dr. Berkley, the one who gave me the film.
Mr. PURDY - You had the processed black and white and color film that you turned over, is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - Were they black and white negatives, transparen- cies, or both?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Black and white negatives, color negatives.
Mr. PURDY - They were color negatives. Were there color transparencies?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - At that time, did you examine the black and white or color negatives to see what the images were on them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I examined them for the purpose to see that we had good negatives. In the examination, I did see the images, but did not study them.
Mr. PURDY - Did you examine both the black and white and


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color negatives?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - When was your next contact, or the next time you had information about these autopsy negatives?
Mr. KNUDSEN - The next time was when they needed seven sets of prints.
Mr. PURDY - When was that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not recall the exact time.
Mr. PURDY - Approximately when was that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It seems to me that it would have been a day later; that four days is a complete jumble in my mind. I cannot remember the sequence of it.
Mr. PURDY - The four days between the assassination and the funeral.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - Is it possible that you had the prints made several years later?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Oh, no.
Mr. PURDY - It is your recollection that it was within a few days?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Oh, yes, very definitely.
Mr. PURDY - Could you tell us the chain of events that led to the printing of the negatives, the printing of the photo- graphic prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was told that they needed seven sets of


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8 x 10 prints.
Mr. PURDY - Who told you that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - To my recollection, Taz Shepherd, Berkley and the Secret Service men were all present. I do not recall which one told me, the exact words. They apparently had been discus- sing what was required, and I was called in and told, here is what they need, and went back to the Photographic Center and made seven sets and brought them back to the White House. I have not seen the prints since.
Mr. PURDY - Was there a particular individual whose orders you were responding to?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not recall.
Mr. PURDY - Do you recall if Dr. Berkley asked that you make the prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - As I say, to the best of my knowledge, Taz Shepherd, who was the Naval Aide, Berkley, the Secret Service man -- I do not recall who it was -- the three of them were there.
Mr. PURDY - Was the Secret Service man James Fox?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. Jim did not have authority for something of that nature.
Mr. PURDY - Was he present at the time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - To the best of my recollection, he went back over to the photographic center with us while the prints were being made, to insure security.
Mr. PURDY - Do you recall whether he was there when you were


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told that you had to have the prints made?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, I do not. I assume he was, because I took them immediately back to the Photographic Center to be printed, but I will not swear.
Mr. PURDY - Do you know whether Taz Shepherd is still liv- ing?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes, he is. He was Naval Aide to the President He is now retired from the Navy. I saw him about a year ago.
Mr. PURDY - Do you know if he lives in this area, generally
Mr. KNUDSEN - I saw him at a local hotel at a reception. You could run him down. He is married to Senator Sparkman's daughter.
Mr. PURDY - You were told to make these seven sets of prints, and you stated that James Fox went with you. Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. PURDY - You went to the Naval Processing Center?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Naval Printing Center.
Mr. PURDY - Who actually made the prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Well, it is basically a mechanical operation. You put them in these trays and the machine just moves them from slot to slot. They are machine processed.
Mr. PURDY - Who supervised the machine?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Oh, Vince Mendona was there. I was there. I am sure Jim Fox was there with us.


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Mr. PURDY - Do you remember some assistants?
Mr. KNUDSEN - There would be another technician. I am trying to think about that time. I think a fellow by the name of Knowlin was our number one technician over there. I will not swear to that.
Mr. PURDY - Do you remember there being some women techni- cians?
Mr. KNUDSEN - We had Sandy Spencer.
Mr. PURDY - Do you remember any upsetting developments or significant occurrences besides just the processing of the prints that happened that day while the prints were being processed?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Do you remember anyone reacting very strongly upon seeing the prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Well, it was a rather traumatic time for all of us. Right off the top of my head, I do not recall any out- standing event. Sandy was the type of gal that she could be upset over some- thing like this. They definitely were not the type of pictures that a person would enjoy looking at.
Mr. PURDY - She worked at the Naval Photographic Center?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes. She was on detail from the White House.
Mr. PURDY - Do you remember a woman's passing out upon seeing the prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.


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Mr. PURDY - Did all the people who were present there with you examine the prints, or did just some of them examine the prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Examine the prints -- they were examined for quality but not for detail. In other words, as a photographer, I can take and make a print and examine it and make sure it is good quality and ten minutes later you can ask me what it was and I cannot even tell you who was in the picture. You are not looking for that sort of thing. You are looking for the quality, to make sure the print is technically correct. It was examined for technical purposes, but not for subject matter.
Mr. PURDY - Did you give the personnel present any special instructions about not talking about what they had done?
Mr. KNUDSEN - We were all told not to discuss the matter.
Mr. PURDY - Who told you that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was told by Dr. Berkley. I was told by the Secret Service. Taz Shepherd emphasized to make sure that every- body knows that they are not supposed to discuss any subject matter in these pictures.
Mr. PURDY - You passed that word on in the Naval Photographic Center?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Vince Mendona passed it on to anybody who was involved with the trays and like that. We had as few personnel as possible in the area. The area was cleared so that only those


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necessary to be there would see them.
Mr. PURDY - After the prints were made, then what happened?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I took them back to the White House.
Mr. PURDY - You and?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Jim Fox. He was with me. We took them back. There again, to the best of my recollection, we took it into the Secret Service Office. I have never seen them since.
Mr. PURDY - What happened when you took them into the Secret Service Office?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I gave them to whoever was the senior agent in the office.
Mr. PURDY - Did you do anything with the prints before you turned them over?
Mr. KNUDSEN - We were told to make seven sets so we laid out seven to make sure there were seven prints of each.
Mr. PURDY - Did you put them in folders or envelopes, or anything like that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I believe that we put each set in a separate envelope. We may have just flip-flopped, but to my recollection, we put them in separate envelopes.
Mr. PURDY - What did you consider a set?
Mr. KNUDSEN - One print of each view.
Mr. PURDY - Of each view of the black and white and color?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, we printed only the color.
Mr. PURDY - You printed only seven sets of the color.


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Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - How many sets of the black and white did you print?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not recall print any. To the best of my knowledge, the black and whites were just a back up in case there was anything wrong with the color, we had a back-up of the black and white.
Mr. PURDY - Did you know why there were seven sets made? Was there some special significance to that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was told seven. I was told to make seven.
Mr. PURDY - Did you put each set into an envelope?
Mr. KNUDSEN - As I say, to the best of my recollection, we did put them, by sets, into the envelope. We may have just put them face-to-face, back-to-back on the seven sets. It has been too long.
Mr. PURDY - Did you label the envelopes?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - You stated me previously on the phone that you had a pretty good idea of where some of the sets of prints were going.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was later told where some of the sets were going.
Mr. PURDY - Who told you that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not recall.
Mr. PURDY - You stated to me previously over the phone that


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you had, in fact, put them in envelopes. Do you think your memory is not certain on that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It has been fifteen years and I have handled hundreds of thousands of pictures since, and I am not -- under oath, I will not say they were in envelopes. They may have gone face-to-face, back-to-back.
Mr. PURDY - You also said on the phone that you belleved that you had labelled the envelopes with some destination or a certain individuals' names. Do you remember doing that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, under oath I am not certain. I am not going to say that something happened. That is a foggy period, fifteen years ago.
Mr. PURDY - You need not overstate the degree of certainty that you hold, the recollection that you have. You can just tell us that you think it was a certain way.
Mr. KNUDSEN - It seems to me that we put the separate sets in envelopes, but there again, I want to stress I will not swear to it.
Mr. PURDY - Is it your best recollection now that you labelled the envelopes?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I personally did not label them.
Mr. PURDY - Were you present when they were labelled?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It seems to me that, at the time, there were seven sets. It was either stated or written down that this one goes to Archives, this one goes to the Attorney General, and we


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started through like that.
Mr. PURDY - What other destinations do you recall?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I am not certain whether this happened that day or if I heard at a later date that they had been sent to them. I do not know.
Mr. PURDY - What other destinations do you recall for the sets of prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Either at that time, or I was later informed that Senator Ted Kennedy had a set.
Mr. PURDY - Do you remember a set being labelled for the Secret Service or FBI or any other government agencies?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I am sure that one was kept for the Secret Service. There is a little friction between the Secret Service and the FBI and at that time it was coming out on the investiga- tion and all of that, and I do not recall the FBI being given any. I was told that the Warren Commission was offered a set and that they refused it.
Mr. PURDY - Who told you that the prints were sent to some of these various destinations?
Mr. KNUDSEN - As I say, I do not recall.
Mr. PURDY - Who might have told you?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It could have been the Secret Service personnel of the upper echelon. It could have been Dr. Berkley. I am not certain.


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Mr. PURDY - Who could it have been in the Secret Service who might have told you where the prints were going?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It could have been Roy Kellerman, who had taken over handling everything at that point. It could have been any one of the upper echelon Secret Service. I talked with them every day.
Mr. PURDY - Anyone else that you had frequent contact with that you can remember the name?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. I am sure it would have been handled within the Secret Service, Dr. Berkley or the Naval Aide. I do not believe that it would have gone beyond there.
Mr. PURDY - How about could it have been Robert Bell?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It could have. He was of the echelon.
Mr. PURDY - Let me ask you this. How would you character- ize your receiving the information that the prints were distribu- ted to some other sources? Would you say that was a rumor, or do you believe you were told it by someone who knew?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I am certain -- there were so many rumors at that time, I just discounted rumors completely. Too many things going on, when a rumor comes, if you do not have a backing.
Mr. PURDY - How would you characterize this information?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not think it would have stuck with me if it did not come from a reliable source.
Mr. PURDY - In other words, it came from someone who knew or thought he or she knew that the information was true?


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Mr. KNUDSEN - Either knew, or had very good reason to believe, that it was true.
Mr. PURDY - When you brought the prints back to the White House, was Dr. Berkley present, or at any time before you last saw them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Berkley, to my knowledge, was not present when we brought the prints back.
Mr. PURDY - You stated earlier at the Naval Photographic Center you had checked the prints for quality, but not for detail. Is that true?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - Did you have a chance, subsequent to that examination, to look a little more closely at the prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I never saw the prints after we brought them back.
Mr. PURDY - Did you have a chance at any time to examine the prints closely enough that you now have a recollection of what they showed?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Oh, yes.
Mr. PURDY - When did you examine them that closely?
Mr. KNUDSEN - At the time that I was examining for technical quality, a lot of things were apparent.
Mr. PURDY - What things stick in your mind about those prints? What do you recall seeing?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Well, it was a close-up of a cavity in the head.


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Probes through the body --
Mr. PURDY - Where did the probes go through the body?
Mr. KNUDSEN - From the point where the projectile entered to the point where the projectile left.
Mr. PURDY - Where were those two points?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I did not say they were two points.
Mr. PURDY - You said the projectile.
Mr. KNUDSEN - From the entry to the exit.
Mr. PURDY - Where were the entry and exit points?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Here, again, I have a mental problem here that we were sworn not to disclose this to anybody. Being under oath, I cannot tell you I do not know, because I do know; but, at the same time, I do feel I have been sworn not to disclose this information and I would prefer very much that you get one of the sets of prints and view them. I am not trying to be hard to get along with. I was told not to disclose the area of the body, and I am at a loss right now as to whether -- which is right.
Mr. PURDY - Was it a Naval order that you were operating under that you would not disclose?
Mr. KNUDSEN - This was Secret Service. To the best of my knowledge, Dr. Berkley also emphasized that this not be discussed.
Mr. PURDY - Do you remember seeing rulers in the photographs or anything other than the body itself?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.


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Mr. PURDY - What other things besides the body did you see, other than the rulers?
Mr. KNUDSEN - What appeared to be stainless steel probes.
Mr. PURDY - About how long were they?
Mr. KNUDSEN - The probes?
Mr. PURDY - Yes.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I would estimate about two foot.
Mr. PURDY - Was there one probe that you saw through the body, or were there more than one?
Mr. KNUDSEN - More than one. Here again, we are getting into this grey area of what I was instructed not to discuss.
Mr. PURDY - I am sure you recognize that this is a duly- authorized Congressional investigation?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is right, I do. That is why I say this is where I have a problem. I realize this is a duly-authorized investigation of the United States government. Personally, my preference would be that you get a set of the prints and view the prints, and then there would be no question. That would get me off the hook on the fact that I am sworn not to discuss the subject matter.
Mr. PURDY - Do you know Robert Goff, the General Counsel of the Secret Service?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not know him personally.
Mr. PURDY - If he authorized you to discuss this information,


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would you be willing to discuss it? I should point out that we have the full cooperation of the Secret Service and the other government agencies in obtaining all other information and there were other orders that came down pertaining to this material on the autopsy that have been formerly rescinded by government agencies so we could pursue the investiga- tion. I am sympathetic to your concerns. I am not sure that you recognize the evidentiary significance of what you are saying here today and the importance of what you are not saying relative to other people's testimony, relative to examinations of the prints that we have made.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I think this would clarify the whole situation. If the prints were examined, and then I would not be in the spot that I am, that I am sworn not to disclose it. It would give a very definite answer to you as to the number of probes.
Mr. PURDY - I should say that we have had access to the autopsy photographs and the questions that I am asking remain unanswered. So I would like to ask again, if either we could arrange, or you could arrange with the Secret Service to have this order lifted, if you then would be willing to cooperate with us?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I will cooperate as far as I can. As I say --
Mr. PURDY - If you are willing, we could take a short break


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and we could call the Secret Service, or I could give you the number and you can call them, or we can just ask a few other questions, have you gain a clearance and then reconvene on another day, if that is convenient with you.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Whichever you prefer.
Mr. PURDY - I think we will take a recess at this time. (A brief recess was taken.)
Mr. PURDY - We are resuming the deposition. During the berak, I spoke with John Mehan, an assistant to Robert Goff and he is going to contact Robert Goff, General Counsel for the Secret Service. For the record, the time now is 10:28 a.m. Mr. Knudsen, was this a totally unique situation, specifically the making of these prints and the number of sets that were made, or was this a kind of a standard procedure for sensitive photo- graphs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not understand the question.
Mr. PURDY - Were there other very sensitive photographs that you had to deal with that maybe were handled in a similar way as these with the Secret Service being involved in the transport of them, with a certain set number of prints made up, a definite number of sets of prints made up? Was this customary procedure for such sensitive materials?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not recall any other time Secret Service has ever escorted me for something like that.


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Mr. PURDY - Was the number seven a customary number for sets of prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. I cannot tell you why it sticks. It sticks in my mind very strongly.
Mr. PURDY - Could it have been seven prints? Are you very sure it is seven sets of prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I know it could not have been seven prints, because that would not have covered a print for each negative.
Mr. PURDY - How many negatives were you? How many prints were made?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not recall.
Mr. PURDY - Could you give me a rough idea? For example, were there a similar number of color and black and white prints, or was there a greater number of one than the other?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No black and white prints made, to my knowledge.
Mr. PURDY - Were there similar numbers of black and white negatives as compared to color negatives?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It seems to me approximately ten negatives, color negatives. I do not recall. This is an approximate.
Mr. PURDY - You think there were approximately ten color prints made?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, approximately ten color negatives; seven prints of each of these.
Mr. PURDY - You made seven prints of each negative?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.


Page 27

Mr. PURDY - So that each set consisted of ten color prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Approximately. I do not recall the exact number. There, again, what I am taking this from -- it seems to me there were five holders that they took into the dark room. If there were five holders, ten negatives. If there were one exposed sheet, there would have been nine negatives.
Mr. PURDY - Were there approximately ten black and white negatives, or a greater or lesser number?
Mr. KNUDSEN - There was one total film back. There would have been twelve negatives, black and white.
Mr. PURDY - Did you make an index of the prints, describing each one?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Was one made to your knowledge?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Not to my knowledge.
Mr. PURDY - You worked in the White House until 1974 approximately? Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Correct.
Mr. PURDY - What did you do then?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Photographer.
Mr. PURDY - Private?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was employed by the United States government. On June 20, 1965, I had my twenty years in the Navy and I requested retirement. I was advised that I could retire, provided I


Page 28

would stay on in a Civil Service capacity. They wanted my services to continue. So I retired. I can tell you the exact date. Just a minute. (Pause) I retired on the 11th of June, 1965, which was a Friday. I worked Saturday and Sunday and went on Civil Service payroll on Monday. On the 14th of June, I went on the Civil Service payroll.
Mr. PURDY - Could you describe to us what you are raading that information from?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Navy retirement. My Navy retirement card. They put the date of retirement on there, so I know that was the date I retired. I know it was a Friday. They had the fine arts celebration, show, or whatever you call it, at the White House. I worked that week-end photographing that, and I was advised that I did not go on payroll until Monday morning.
Mr. PURDY - Have you been working on Civil Service payroll ever since?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Until I retired in November of `74.
Mr. PURDY - What have you been doing since then?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Since then, free-lance photography.
Mr. PURDY - You still have been working even though you have been retired from the government?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.


Page 29

Mr. PURDY - Are you working full-time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. Just part-time, free-lance.
Mr. PURDY - Have you had any contact, or did you have any contact, with any other autopsy-related materials while you were working at the White House during those years?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Not to my knowledge.
Mr. PURDY - Did you ever have knowledge of, or were you ever told about, autopsy x-rays, for example?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. I do not know that any were ever taken.
Mr. PURDY - Did you know, from your personal knowledge, or were you told about, the existence of any tissue-related materials from the autopsy itself, such as slides or tissue sections or paraffin blocks?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was told -- I do not know who it was -- that there was tissue taken from the back of the head. As I say, I was told. I do not know.
Mr. PURDY - Did you also learn where that material was being kept when you learned of its existence?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was told that it was taken at the time of the autopsy at the Naval Hospital in Bethesda. I would just assume that it was studied out there, because I understand they have a fine set-up there as anyplace. It would be an assumption; I do not know.
Mr. PURDY - Did you ever come into the possession of any information about where those tissue materials were kept or


Page 30

what happened to them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - We will take another short break and see if we can hear from the Secret Service. It is now 10:35 a.m. (A brief recess was taken)
Mr. PURDY - We will go back on the record now. The time now is 11:12 a.m. We still have been unable to get the call back from Robert Goff of the Secret Service, so, Mr. Knudsen, I did, as I said, talk with John Mehan who works for Robert Goff. He is trying to get in touch with him but we -- you were in the Navy at the time, I believe. Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - I will show you, at this time, a letter that we sent to the Secretary of Defense, asking that the order of silence which was given to Navy personnel be lifted and the response, and I give you my assurance that the Secret Service is cooperating with us, and it is only a question of the communica- tion getting through. Specifically, this letter requests that the order of silence be lifted and that it pertain to people present at the autopsy of the President. I show you this letter. It is dated February 27, 1978, to Harold Brown, Secretary of Defense, and just take your time and read that. (Pause) If you still have a problem going into the details of your


Page 31

recollection, we can convene at another time to question you.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I probably would recall as good now as I could later. Like I say, it has been a long time.
Mr. PURDY - We have gone over quite a few of your recollec- tions, and we are going to show you, in a second, the color autopsy prints that we have and ask you whether the prints that you are shown are consistent with your recollections of them when you saw them. The primary points that we are going to cover are the number and locations of wounds and the other details in the photographs that you described generally, such as the presence of metal probes in the photographs and the presence of rules in the photographs, and what have you. Are you confident now that you saw metal probes in the photographs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - Are you confident that the metal probes were actually through the wounds when you saw them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes, I am certain of that, because it showed the point of entry and exit with the probe.
Mr. PURDY - Were there ever photographs that you have seen, either before this incident or since that incident that you might be confusing with your recollection of these photographs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - To my knowledge, I have not seen anything regarding -- I have never seen any photographs of it other than


Page 32

the ones taken there.
Mr. PURDY - Have you seen photographs of any other autopsies?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Have you seen photographs of any other dead bodies that may have probes in them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes, I have. I am certain on the Kennedy there were the probes showing the point of entry and exit.
Mr. PURDY - How many probes were there that you saw in a given picture? What is the most probes that you saw in a given picture at one time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I know there were two.
Mr. PURDY - Two metal probes that were through wounds when you saw them?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - We will take a break. It is 11:20. (A brief recess was taken.)
Mr. PURDY - We will resuem. The time is now 11:28, and Mr. Knusen and I have just spoken with Bob Goff on the phone and, Mr. Knusen, if you just want to briefly state what Mr. Goff said to you about whether you could talk to us?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Well, Mr. Goff said that under the circumstan- ces that, it being a legitimate government subcommittee, that he felt that it would be appropriate to cooperate to the fullest. He did not have any objection to my talking. The main thing that they felt was continued silence towards


Page 33

any assassination buffs, reporters or this sort of thing. But, in so far as any Committee, they had no objection and thought that I should cooperate.
Mr. PURDY - Thank you. As I said previously, Mr. Goff is the General Counsel of the United States Secret Service. Now, before the break we were talkinq about the number of probes, and you had said the most you saw in any one picture was two. I believe that is what you stated, is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I said the minimum was two.
Mr. PURDY - What was the most?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Over this period of time, I am not certain. It seems to me that there were three in one picture, but this I will not state for sure.
Mr. PURDY - Of the proves that you recall, where did they enter and where did they exit?
Mr. KNUDSEN - One was right near the neck and out the back.
Mr. PURDY - The front of the neck and out the back of the neck?
Mr. KNUDSEN - The point of entry-exit.
Mr. PURDY - The metal probe extended from the front of the neck to the back of the neck?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right. One was through the chest cavity.
Mr. PURDY - Did it go all the way through?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes. It seems to me that the entry point was


Page 34

a little bit lower in the back than -- well, the point in the back was a little bit lower than the point in the front. Put it that way. So the probe was going diagonally from top to bottom, front to back.
Mr. PURDY - Approximately, regarding both probes, how high -- you mentioned the one was from the front of the neck, the probe extended between points on the front of the neck and the back of the neck. How high on the back of the neck, and how high or low from the front of the neck would you say for that probe?
Mr. KNUDSEN - As I said, not studying them for technical purposes, it seemed to me that the point on the front was about this point, somewhere in this area here (Indicating).
Mr. PURDY - Could you articulate?
Mr. KNUDSEN - What bone is this?
Mr. PURDY - You are pointing to a point right around the top --
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right about where the neck-tie is. That would be somewhere in that vicinity.
Mr. PURDY - Approximately how much lower than that would you say the other probe, which went through the chest cavity?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I would put it six, seven inches.
Mr. PURDY - Was it opened or closed in the photograph?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It was a side view. I just glanced at it to make sure.
Mr. PURDY - From the side view, you saw both probes?


Page 35

Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - Where would you place the points of the probes in the back? You say one was in the neck, one was in the back. Approximately how high up, or how low?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I would put in the back -- it would seem to me it is probably around ten inches. There, again, I do not recall the length of time. I cannot say.
Mr. PURDY - You were kind of pointing to the middle of your back, about midway down, you would say?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Midway between the neck and the waist.
Mr. PURDY - Where was the other probe?
Mr. KNUDSEN - This one --
Mr. PURDY - You just indicated where the probe came out, on the lower --
Mr. KNUDSEN - Somewhere around the middle of the back. It seemed to me it was right around midchest.
Mr. PURDY - The probe that you said you could see coming out of the neck, the front of the neck, where was it out of the back of the neck? How high up would you say that one was.
Mr. KNUDSEN - About the base of the neck. Was the body lying flat, or sitting up or lying on its front when you saw the probes through it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It would have to be erected to put the probes through, because on the back there was no way.
Mr. PURDY - Could you make out the faces of the people who


Page 36

were holding him or the faces of the people in the background?
Mr. KNUDSEN - To my knowledge, there were no faces.
Mr. PURDY - Could you see their hands?
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, I did not study them.
Mr. PURDY - Was there, in any of the photographs, a photo- graph showing a metal probe through the head?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, not to my knowledge. To my knowledge, the only photograph of the head was to show the wound in the right rear of the head there, a little right of center.
Mr. PURDY - I am going to show you the color autopsy prints. They are numbered beginning with 26F. If you want to make a comment on a particular print, just let me know and I will doublecheck the number of it so I will be able to refer to it in the record. Let the record show I am handing the witness JFK Autopsy Photo No. 6, part 1, opened to the color prints. These are photographs of the autopsy prints. These are not the actual prints.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I was going to say, these are not the original prints. I can see that right off. The color is off. Did you want me to go through them?
Mr. PURDY - You can leaf through them and make comments where you feel that it is necessary. If you see photographs that you recognize, you might say that you recognize it.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I recall roughly -- there again, I did not study


Page 37

them in detail, I just fanned through the negatives.
Mr. PURDY - The witness has looked through photographs 26 tl 29 so far.
Mr. KNUDSEN - These are roughly what I recall seeing, and here is the ruler that I recall on one.
Mr. PURDY - The witness is referring to photograph 38F.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I recall seeing one --
Mr. PURDY - The photograph of the back of the President.
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, I will not say it was this one. I see that there are others. I recall, in the back of my mind, there was a ruler in some of the photographs.
Mr. PURDY - Let the record show that some of these are multiple prints of the same one. Let me ask you --
Mr. KNUDSEN - I did not see these.
Mr. PURDY - The witness is referring to the color photographs of the brain. He said he had not seen those. Let me ask you about photograph number 44F. Was this the photograph you made reference to earlier when you talked about the photograph of the head opened up or the skull opened up?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It seems to me that there was one photograph that showed -- I can best describe it to you. This part of the hair (Indicating). There seems that there is a strand of skin holding this this way.
Mr. PURDY - This witness is pointing to the back portion of


Page 38

the head. I am turning to photograph 42 and 43F.
Mr. KNUDSEN - This is not what I mean.
Mr. PURDY - A photograph of the back of the President's head. Let me just ask you if that looks like one that you saw, or that matches your recollection. This is the back of the President's head here.
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, I did not study it in detail. It seems to me that there was a little bit more of the piece of the skull hanging in one of the photographs. Here, this is it.
Mr. PURDY - Now we are referring to Photograph No. 37F, showing the top of the President's head. So it is your testimony here today that these photographs are not inconsistent with the ones that you saw?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, not at all.
Mr. PURDY - Is there anything that you saw that is not represented by these photographs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I feel certain that there was the one with the two probes.
Mr. PURDY - One photograph with two probes through the body?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - I am referring again to Photograph No. 37 in the area that is on the right side of the photograph from your position, which is to the front of the President's body. There are some metal things vaguely in view, one which points towards the


Page 39

President.
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is not it. That is not what I had in mind.
Mr. PURDY - Could you, once again, go through the photographs looking carefully to see if there is anything in there that you might have taken to be a metal probe which was not on this examination? (Pause) Let the record show that the witness is beginning again at 26F. (Pause)
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not see a photograph here that covers the chest area.
Mr. PURDY - It was your sense that it was from the side, though?
Mr. KNUDSEN - A side view.
Mr. PURDY - Referring to Photograph No. 40F, showing the front of the President, including the front neck region, do you see a point on the President which would correspond to one or more of the locations of the probe that you recall?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right here (Indicating.)
Mr. PURDY - Could you articulate it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right here -- the neck -- where the necktie would be tied.
Mr. PURDY - Let the record show that the witness is pointing


Page 40

to the tracheotomy incision at the front of the President's neck. Is it your recollection, also, that there was a probe lower than that area? Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - Looking at this photograph, approximately how much lower? Was it at a point that would not be visible in this photograph?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I am beginning to wonder now. I do not see anything here. But it is in the back of my mind there was a probe through the body.
Mr. PURDY - Is it your present recollection that the body was not opened up in the chest area, or could you not tell whether it was opened up, or was it definitely not open in the picture that you recall but do not see here?
Mr. KNUDSEN - There again, I was looking quickly for quality. I did not study it. But I do not recall seeing any photograph of the chest being opened.
Mr. PURDY - Do you think it is something you would remember, if the President's chest was cut and opened up?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - Does this approximately respond to the number of color prints you recall? Mr. Knusen. That is correct.
Mr. PURDY - It is just your recollection that there was


Page 41

one more, or at least one more, than is present in these? Mr.Knudsen. It seems to me that the one I saw with the probes was strictly a negative. I do not remember seeing a print of it. The first day, when we processed the film, we were just checking the negatives. I believe it was a black and white. I do not know. I believe it was the negative of the probe.
Mr. PURDY - You think it was black and white, or you think it might have been, or you are just not sure?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It was a negative. I do not recall ever having seen a print, but it seems to me that there was a negative, in checking the negatives.
Mr. PURDY - Let me show you from the same photo book at the beginning, photographs of the black and white prints. Do you see if perhaps one of these might correspond to your recollection of the black and white negative that you just referred to, beginning at Photograph No. 1F? Let the record show that the witness is looking through the photographs sequentially. (Pause)
Mr. KNUDSEN - Is this in the copy?
Mr. PURDY - Let the record show that the witness is refer- ring to 13F. It looks like a band of light across the lower portion of the photograph.
Mr. KNUDSEN - In looking at the negative, you have a band here. It has been so doggoned long. If that is in the original --


Page 42

Mr. PURDY - I do not think it is in the original, because it looks like it is on something from the copies.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I see it over here now. I do not see it.
Mr. PURDY - You are saying you do not see it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not see it here, but in the back of my mind, it still seemed that there was one photograph, the body erect with two probes through it.
Mr. PURDY - Let me ask you --
Mr. KNUDSEN - One negative.
Mr. PURDY - It is your recollection that it was just one film pack of black and white film?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Yes.
Mr. PURDY - You say there are twelve exposures?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Twelve exposures.
Mr. PURDY - There definitely was not another pack?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I will not swear to that. I do not honestly remember.
Mr. PURDY - You personally developed the black and white film?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - No one else was in the room when you did it?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is right.
Mr. PURDY - It is James Fox's recollection that he did the black and white developing at the Secret Service lab. That is inconsistent with your recollection.


Page 43

Mr. KNUDSEN - He may have printed black and whites at his lab. The black and whites were developed at the photographic center at the same time that the color was.
Mr. PURDY - You personally have a specific recollection of having developed the black and white negatives?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right. Jim stood outside the darkroom door.
Mr. PURDY - It is also Mr. Fox's recollection that some of the black and white sides of the film holders either had no film in them or they were not exposed.
Mr. KNUDSEN - The black and white was film pack. The film holders were color. To the best of my knowledge, there were no black and whites in the holders. I know there was a pack.
Mr. PURDY - It is also your recollection that all of the exposures came up well, of the black and whites?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Right.
Mr. PURDY - You said maybe one of the colors either was underexposed or overexposed?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It could not have been overexposed. There is no exposure. I do not recall for sure on this, but --
Mr. PURDY - If there was one like that --
Mr. KNUDSEN - There is something shady about the third piece of film we took with us.
Mr. PURDY - If there was one, it was color and not black and white?


Page 44

Mr. KNUDSEN - Correct.
Mr. PURDY - Were you ever asked for a statement by any government body about the work that you did pertaining to the negatives or autopsy prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Could you articulate that again?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Do you recall that the orders to have the prints made up came to you from Fox?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, I do not. At this point, I do not recall who gave the specific order.
Mr. PURDY - It is your sense that it was in a meeting with Tax Shepherd, Admiral Berkley, and possibly Jim Fox's being present. Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It is my recollection that the prints of Dr. Berkley, the Secret Service and I do not recall who the agent was, possibly Fox and possibly Tax Shepherd.
Mr. PURDY - Mr. Fox has indicated that Dr. Berkley told him to have the prints made up, and then he went to Mr. Balk of the Secret Service for his okay. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It could have been Berkley. I know Berkley was definitely there when the prints -- it seems to me that Berkley is the one who stated that the prints were to be made and, like I say, I do not recall who was there other than I know


Page 45

that Berkley was. It seems to me that Fox was, and it could have been other agents, and it could have been Taz Shepherd.
Mr. PURDY - You think Taz Shepherd was aware of what was going on?
Mr. KNUDSEN - As an agent present in the field, he was aware of it.
Mr. PURDY - Do you have any personal knowledge about when and where the black and white prints were made?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No.
Mr. PURDY - Do you know that they were not made at the Naval Photographic Center?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not know that for a fact. I assumed that the black and white prints were made by Jim Fox. He had black and white capabilities within the Secret Service. The reason we got involved was the color capability which he did not have.
Mr. PURDY - Was there anything else that you can add for us about the details of these incidents, or anything that you want to put in perspective or elaborate on at this time?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. Like I say, it has been fifteen years and a lot of this is foggy. I do know that the best sequence of events that I can recall was the morning following the autopsy, Berkley handed me a paper bag with the black and white and color film and there was an agent-- I do not recall who it was -- and Jim Fox was there, and he said, take this over to the Photographic Center, process it, bring the negatives back, don't let anybody


Page 46

see it. I said, somebody is going to have to in the color processing of it. Don't let anybody see it who doesn't have to, and don't discuss it with anybody.
Mr. PURDY - Was there anyone else that you know of that may have seen the negative that you are talking about that showed the probes, anyone else that we might suggest that we might talk to about that?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. It is just in the back of my mind I am certain that there is the one shot of the body erect, two probes through it, and I processed the black and white. I hung it up. I just quickly went down it to make sure I had everything there. I then closed tne door. Jim and I stayed outside, had a cup of coffee or something while the film was drying. After it was dry, I put each negative in a four by five preserver, took it, took the color, which had also dried the same.
Mr. PURDY - Did Jim Fox look at those black and white negatives, to your knowledge?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Not in my presence.
Mr. PURDY - You were present when you and he turned them over?
Mr. KNUDSEN - We went back to -- it seems to me it was W-16, I am not certain. We did go into W-16, but wherever it was we went with the negative. We turned them all back.


Page 47

Mr. PURDY - The only reason you would have a feeling that he had reviewed them was the fact that you assumed that he made black and white prints?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I assume that Jim is the one that made the prints.
Mr. PURDY - Did Sandy Spencer or anyone else at Naval Photographic Center have an occasion to look at the black and white negatives, to your knowledge?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No. Sandy was basically color. As I say, I went into the dark room, processed it, went out the door, stayed outside the door. When it was dry, I went back and checked them. They were dry, and we departed.
Mr. PURDY - Have you had any discussion with any of the other people that you tlaked about today about what you saw in those photographs?
Mr. KNUDSEN - No, never. I never discussed anything on these photographs until today in detail.
Mr. PURDY - Have you had any previous experience seeing metal probes such as this so that you would know what it would look like on a negative?
Mr. KNUDSEN - The only reason I say I thought it was a metal probe, in my recollection, it was a rod. Twenty-four inches long, probably; three-eighths of an inch diameter. It appeared to be aluminimum, stainless steel. There again, it was a negative this size, hanging like this


Page 48

to dry.
Mr. PURDY - You have had a lot of experience looking at negatives over the years?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Over the years.
Mr. PURDY - Could it have been some form of light shadow or a defect in the negative that you may have thought was a metal probe, or do you think there was actually an object, that there was a picture taken?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I thought that there had to be something in the negative that I do not believe could have been a defect, no.
Mr. PURDY - It did not look like an artifact of any kind?
Mr. KNUDSEN - It did not appear that way to me. Like I say, I did not take it down and study it over a view, or anything like that. I just glanced at it. The wall was approximately this color and the negatives were hanging like this (Indicating). I just flipped them around like this (Indicating).
Mr. PURDY - Let the record show that the witness held up some papers from the top, as though it was a negative hanging from a line, and just turned them and glanced at the papers. How certain are you that seven prints, seven sets of prints were made of the color negatives?
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is the number that sticks in the back of my mind. Why the number seven sticks there, I do not know.
Mr. PURDY - You have a specific recollection that there was a number, not just one or two, but there were a number of sets of


Page 49

prints made. Is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Oh, yes. More than one or two.
Mr. PURDY - Does it refresh your recollection to know that no one else whom we have talked to recalls that there were more than one or two sets of prints made? I do not mean to imply that I am questioning your word. I just want point out to you that there is a very significant discrepancy in people's recollections, and while yours seems very specific, I just wanted you to know that there were others who recall that it was otherwise.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Again, I repeat, it has been approximately 15 years. To the best of my recollection, there were more than one or two. Like I say, why the number -- I will not swear to the number seven, but that number sticks in the back of my mind for some reason, and apparently there were more than seven negatives printed, therefore --
Mr. PURDY - Let me ask you this. If you were to be told that someone was absolutely certain, and had proof, that there were only one or two or three sets of prints maae, what would your reaction to that be? Would your reaction be, well, I guess I just --
Mr. KNUDSEN - If they are absolutely certain, and have good reason to be certain of it, I would not argue with them.
Mr. PURDY - Would you be surprised to find that that was the


Page 50

case?
Mr. KNUDSEN - Like I say, this number seven -- I do not now, but it sticks in the back of my mind. If you said, well, you can show me a document with the printers that there was to be two each or three each, I would say well, I still do not know where the seven came from. But I will not argue with you.
Mr. PURDY - You would be surprised if you found that to be the case, that there were only one or two or three sets made, and not seven, is that correct?
Mr. KNUDSEN - I would not say I would be surprised.
Mr. PURDY - It is not your present recollection?
Mr. KNUDSEN - My present recollection is there were more than one or two sets made.
Mr. PURDY - At this time, as we do with each witness, we will give you an opportunity to elaborate, or make any other comments that you would like to make, and I think we gave you that opportunity, but I asked a few more questions. If you would like to add anything, please do so at this time.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Like I say, it has been a long time. To the best of my recollection, it has been, as I said -- on the number of prints, if you have reason to show that there were two or three, I would not argue with it. If, for some reason, this number seven sticks up in the back of my mind, I could well be wrong. But that number sticks in the back of my mind.


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As to that, I am certain the black and white negatives was one with the body sitting up with the probes through it. I do not know. I honestly do not what to say now if that one is missing. It is in the back of my mind, in fact, even to the point that it was the right profile. The body was sitting up, and looking at the right side profile.
Mr. PURDY - I should add that -- Mr. Knutsen. I will tell you one thing that would clarify it, if the negatives were available. The film pack is numbered right on the bottom at the factory, and you can go one through twelve.
Mr. PURDY - Also, there has not been previous evidence that there were either metal probes that were extended totally through the body, or that such probes were photographed through the body. So obviously, it would be significant if your recollection were correct, and it would be of evidentiary significance to us. I, in no way, mean to question your view, your recollection. I just want you to have it in historical perspective as to what some other say, and you may be absolutely, completely correct.
Mr. KNUDSEN - I do not know why that one sticks in my mind. A right profile of the body. It would seem to me that if it were, as I am sure that it was, that there would have been something in the autopsy report as to the probes, and I cannot conceive in my mind why I would feel that this negative did have it. Like I said a couple of times, I did not study these things


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over a viewing glass like this (Indicating). As you say, it was suspended from a clothespin on a wire, a hook on a wire, and I was just flipping them this way. I do not see any picture there that would confuse with the picture, the waist-up picture.
Mr. PURDY - If you should recall anything else, whether it is new things or elaboration or your opinions on anything change or someone should, someone's name should come to mind who might also be able to provide information, I hope you will feel free to contact us here.
Mr. KNUDSEN - You have talked to Jim Fox?
Mr. PURDY - Yes.
Mr. KNUDSEN - And he did not recall any black and white negative of that nature?
Mr. PURDY - I am not permitted to give out the substance of the investigation, but I think you can glean certain things from the nature of my questions.
Mr. KNUDSEN - Jim is the one who apparently printed the black and white. I know the black and white did not go into the Photo Center for printing, so I would assume that Jim did it. Why this sticks in my mind, that there was one with these two probes through the body that nobody else recalls, it puts a question in my mind, and yet but I could not imagine where I could get the idea from, if I had not seen it. And yet it is starting to bother me now that there is nothing in the autopsy


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about it. Certainly that would be in the autopsy, if it were true. At this point, I wish I had studied the negatives rather than glance at them. At this point, I am confused why it sticks in my mind so strongly that there was this photograph, yet nobody else recalls it, and it is apparently not in any report. If it is not in any report -- I cannot conceive why it would not be in the report. If it were there -- it is really bothering me as to why it does stick in my mind so much.
Mr. PURDY - As I said, if you, you know, desire to talk about it, or after you have thought about it some more or whatever, please feel free to give us a call and we will be glad to talk about it. We appreciate very much your taking the time and coming in, particularly since it took a lot longer than we thought it would.
Mr. KNUDSEN - That is okay. I am trying to rack my mind on why this should stick in my mind so strongly that there was this photograph, and yet no other signs of it. It bothers me, but I cannot think of any reason that it would stick in my mind if I hadn't seen it.
Mr. PURDY - This concludes the deposition. It is now 12:05. (Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m., the taking of the instant deposition ceased.)

END OF ROBERT KNUDSEN DEPOSITION