TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV

The testimony of Ilya A. Mamantov was taken at 10 a.m., on March 23, 1964 in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Before I examine you, Mr. Mamantov, you are appearing voluntarily at our request?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if you wish counsel?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't wish counsel?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't wish it.
Mr. JENNER. And you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to waive the signing of your deposition.

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Mr. MAMANTOV. It doesn't matter--what the proper procedure is--I would like to read those--it's always possible, because the interpretation of a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. If you want me to sign, I'll sign. If you don't, all right.
Mr. JENNER. That's your option--you may sign it or not, as you see fit.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's my option--all right.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record. (Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. On the record. If he wishes--it will be Thursday morning probably-we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would that be convenient for you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. If you will come up to this office then, Thursday morning, then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your testimony will available to you to peruse if you wish.
Mr. MAMANTOV. My name as you used my name was misspelled--I don't know if you want that--it was misspelled on my letter sent me.
Mr. JENNER. When I examine you I will have you spell your name. Go ahead and spell it for us now.
Mr. MAMANTOV. It's M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not "en" as you have it.
Mr. JENNER. All right, give your full name and spell it.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll give you my full name.
Mr. JENNER. And how do you pronounce that full name? I-l-y-e [phonetic spelling], or I-l-a [phonetic spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I-l-y-a [spelling], A. M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and the address has been changed in the meantime too--to 2444 Fairway Circle, Richardson, Tex., Zip No. 75080, if it is important.
Mr. JENNER. Did you give your telephone number?
Mr. MAMANTOV. AD-5-28--2873, it's a new number.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, the Commission desires to inquire of you because of your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts, and your work with the Dallas City Police on November 22 and 23.
Mr. MAMANTOV. The 22d.
Mr. JENNER. The 22d only, and you translated for Marina Oswald in that connection?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance with the Russian emigre group in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and especially your acquaintance with Marina to the extent you had one. You have given your full name and your full address. What is your business, profession, or occupation?
Mr. MAMANTOV. A research geologist with Sun Oil Co.
Mr. JENNER. And how long have you held that position?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Since 1955.
Mr. JENNER. And is that your profession--a geologist?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And prior to 1952, your employment was?
Mr. MAMANTOV. With the Donnally Geophysical Co. here in Dallas as seismologist.
Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time did that work extend?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of 1955, when I took my present job.
Mr. JENNER. Let's take one step back--by whom were you employed, or with whom were you associated, prior thereto?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Lion Match Co.
Mr. JENNER. L-y-o-n [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. L-i-o-n [spelling] Match Co. in New York.
Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?
Mr. MAMANTOV. As a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist, you at

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least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your profession or your particular calling?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced person and I didn't speak English enough.
Mr. JENNER. All right, I got back to where I was going to go faster than I thought.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--you want it in details--my life--approximately at that time?
Mr. JENNER. Not in great detail, but start out this way--I am a native of such and such country--and just tell us about yourself.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I am a native of Russia. When I was 7 my parents came to Latvia.
Mr. JENNER. They immigrated to Latvia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, and there I was raised and educated and I received my geological education and training. In 1945, excuse me, 1944, we left for Germany with the retreating German Army and I went to South Germany, stayed until the American Army moved in Peissenberg, P-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], Germany and in August of that year, excuse me, of 1945, we went to a DP camp.
Mr. JENNER. "DP" meaning displaced persons?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Displaced persons camp near Guenzburg, G-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g [spelling], Germany.
Mr. JENNER. You say "we", at the time were you married?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I, oh, I was married all time.
Mr. JENNER. When did you marry?
Mr. MAMANTOV. 1938.
Mr. JENNER. A native of Latvia or of Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Latvia, and my wife is Latvian--native Latvian.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age, sir?
Mr. MAMANTOV. 50 and, so, I am--my mother-in-law was also with us.
Mr. JENNER. Who is she--what is her name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. And is she in this country?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll ask you some more questions about her later.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And her husband was arrested by the Communist in 1941 and we haven't heard of him since that time.
Mr. JENNER. You say "arrested by the Communist" do you make a distinction when you use the word description "Communist" as something different from the Russians?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. As you know, Communists are in Latvia, Communists are in Russia, and Communists are in Germany, and nothing to do with the nation. I am using this as an occupational force I'll put it this way.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you receive your higher education?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In Riga, R-i-g-a [spelling], Latvia, which is the capital of Latvia, and the name of the university was the University of Latvia.
Mr. JENNER. And have you had graduate school education?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's where I got my graduate school. My degree is approximately equivalent to a local Ph. D--it's actually between master's and Ph. D.
Mr. JENNER. When did you settle in Dallas?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In September 1955.
Mr. JENNER. And have you and Mrs. Mamantov resided in Dallas ever since?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; my wife still was in Roswell, N. Mex., at that she moved to Dallas immediately after the Thanksgiving Day.
Mr. JENNER. In 1955?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. You see, we received our citizenship in November of 1955 at Roswell, N. Mex.
Mr. JENNER. Both you and your wife?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. Whole family, and Mrs. Gravitis.
Mr. JENNER. Does that include Mrs. Gravitis?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Any particular reason why you were in Roswell, N. Mex.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I was with Donnally Geophysical Co. at that time.
Mr. JENNER. And was its main office located there?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; this was the field party. The office is located here in Dallas and we traveled--at the start of 1951--Post, Tex.; Brownfield, Tex.; Lubbock, Tex.; Hobbs, N. Mex.; Odessa, Tex.; Roswell, N. Mex., and I left----
Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough.
Mr. MAMANTOV. My family and my wife and I moved to Mississippi for a month.
Mr. JENNER. Still employed by Lion?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Still employed by the seising crew which was in Magee, Miss. From there we moved to Palacious, Tex. From there to Coalgate, Okla.; from Coalgate, Okla., to Seminole, Tex. My wife quit the company at that time and went to Roswell to join the family.
Mr. JENNER. Is your wife a professional person also?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She is not graduated from a law school, but she went quite a way.
Mr. JENNER. She took legal training, training in the law?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but she worked as a geologist--as geological computer for that particular company.
Mr. JENNER. Did she finish her law work in Europe or here?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she didn't graduate. The Communists moved in and our law didn't exist at that time, as well you know.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, and this gentleman is Jim Liebeler. We are members of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Assassination Commission, and under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of Mr. Mamantov. I should also say to you, Mr. Mamantov--have you had 3-days' notice?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, the Secret Service called me on Friday and on Saturday I received your letter, which was sent to my old address.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that might not be technically 3-days' notice. You are entitled under the rules of procedure to the 3-days' notice of the taking of your deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; Friday, Saturday, Sunday--I had.
Mr. JENNER. You are entitled to waive that full 3 days if you desire, and do you agree to waive it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--I agree to deposition--I don't know your legal terms.
Mr. JENNER. We've got you into Dallas, now.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; we got to Seminole--one more place I went from there. No; two more places--I went from Seminole to Snyder, Tex., and from Snyder, Tex., I went for 3 weeks to Forest, Miss., and at that time I quit the company and got my job with Sun Oil Co. here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER With Sun?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and purchased our home at 6911 East Mockingbird in October, the 1st of October 1955.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what is your facility in the command of the Russian language, with particular reference to--did you or have you done any teaching of the language?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am teaching since 1960 here in the Dallas area. I taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in 1960-1961. And, I taught in the Austin College in Sherman from--it was the fall of, yes, it was fall of 1961 and 1962 No--1962 and 1963. Now, I am teaching at SMU or Dallas College, to be specific, of SMU.
Mr. JENNER. Have you done any interpreting or translating?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; for the American Geophysical Union, quite extensively in 1959, 1960, and 1961, and I think--yes--1961 I finished.
Mr. JENNER. And have you also done any interpreting or translating for any law enforcement agencies?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Here in the States?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Let me think a little--no, I don't remember. I have translated minor papers, you see, like Soviet Union's marriage certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with divorces, and I might be of a help to a group of Latvians, people here in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the first time for the police department.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I'll get to that. Have you ever been called upon by either any agency of the Government of the United States or of the State of Texas or the City of Dallas to do any interpreting or translating?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, I was called by the police force for the City of Dallas around 5 o'clock, November 22.
Mr. JENNER. What year?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Of 1955, on 2 or 3 minutes' notice.
Mr. JENNER. It was 1955 or 1963?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. I got from what you have said, then, you had no prior notice?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were called by some official of the city police department?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he's Lieutenant--they call him Chief.
Mr. JENNER. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of minutes ahead of Lumpkin--is it important?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know--you might state what it is.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton, C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)--I don't know how to spell his name right now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two.
Mr. JENNER. And who is he?
Mr. MAMANTOV. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I'm not mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service. And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that was your first----
Mr. MAMANTOV. This was a period of five minutes, I would say, maximum.
Mr. JENNER. This, then, was your first contact with or connection with this tragedy?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you then came to the Dallas City Police Department, did you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. However, I called FBI about half an hour before the police called me. You see, I was in the dentist's office when I heard Lee Oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, I felt it is my duty to notify the FBI that I know of him and knew fairly well his background here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. And you so advised the FBI?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That was a half hour ahead of the time----
Mr. MAMANTOV. This was approximately, I would say----
Mr. JENNER. 4:30?
Mr. MAMANTOV. 4:30.
Mr. JENNER. I'll get into that background in a little while, Mr. Mamantov. You did go, then, to the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr. MAMANTOV. They sent a police car.
Mr. JENNER. To pick you up?
Mr. MAMANTOV. To pick me up--it was quite disturbing because there was sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you reside at that time?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. 6911 East Mockingbird.
Mr. JENNER. East Mockingbird?
Mr. MAMANTOV. East Mockingbird Lane.
Mr. JENNER. That's correct. And you were escorted into the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct and was introduced to Captain Fritz.
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mr. MAMANTOV. He took me into a room filled up with the detectives--before we entered that room, I had to pass through the hallway filled up with the newspaper and TV and people.
Mr. JENNER. You just went through that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, I just went through with Captain Fritz there that----
Mr. JENNER. When you got into the room, now, whom did you see there?
Mr. MAMANTOV. When I got into the room I saw Marina, I saw Mrs Paine, whom I knew, who has been once in our house, and I have numerous telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Gravitis live with you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "our house," that's the house in which you, your wife and Mrs. Gravitis reside?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She resides with us since 1943---we never were separated.
Mr. JENNER. Is her first name Dorothy?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Dorothy, and I saw Mrs. Paine and I saw next to her a young woman with a young baby whom I assumed to be Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Marina Oswald in your life prior to that moment? Knowingly?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met her prior to that time?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I met her after that, accidentally.
Mr. JENNER. No; this is prior--up to that moment, you had had no contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Nor with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but Marina and my mother-in-law had telephone conversations from my home, so I knew of her quite a bit through Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Gravitis, but I never had seen her in person, but I never had talked to her before, so from that room I was taken into another small room, and after a while Mrs. Paine and Marina was brought in and she also had a baby.
Mr. JENNER. And whom else, in addition to you, was in the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. There was a young detective, I forgot his name. Then, there was another tall detective who actually questioned Marina and for whom I interpreted.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; but if I would see him I would place him.
Mr. JENNER. And those were the persons?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, there was another person, the agent of the FBI, who was taking notes and sitting across at the desk.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name "Hosty" familiar to you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It was "H", but I don't remember; but it was, either this young fellow that was the detective was Hosty, or FBI, but it started with "H".
Mr. JENNER. Well, it might be "H"--Hosty.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and I talked to him after that a few minutes, he will recognize me and I recognize him when we get together.
Mr. JENNER. You seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of recall; would you start now, and I will try not to interrupt you, and relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the responses---the questioning of Marina and the responses she gave?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. Shall I go ahead?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; just do it the way it comes naturally to you.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. The problem is, I never tried to memorize this because I mean--this was pure translation.
Mr. JENNER. And you were probably a little excited then, too, weren't you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I was quite excited and I didn't feel like I should try to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at Mrs. Paine's residence in Irving----
Mr. JENNER. To which she responded?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She responded.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say? Did she respond in the affirmative, is what I was getting at?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes; she said she was living there.
Mr. JENNER. Do the best you can, and I'll try not to interrupt you, but I'll have to, I'm sure, at times.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the questions, but I would remember approximately what she was asked.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. She was asked if she lived with Mrs. Paine around that particular day and if she was that morning in Mrs. Paine's home. She answered positively then.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me I'm sure that positively is affirmative?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Affirmative.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what time was this--5:30 or 6 o'clock.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say it's 5:30, because going to the police station I met my wife coming from work, which should be 5:30 or 6 o'clock, I would say. Then, she was asked if Oswald spent that night in Mrs. Paine's home at that time, that night from 21 to 22 of November.
Mr. JENNER. The previous evening?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The previous evening and including the night.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. She affirmed that. Then, how did he get up? She said he had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. They asked her also if usually she prepared breakfast for him, and if I remember right, she said usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so, so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to eat breakfast. Now----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was she questioned, or did she say anything about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; as far as I remember he didn't return. I mean, I don't think the question was asked to her. Or, it is in my mind that he didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Mamantov, may I say this-- I don't want any of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall definitely.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I understand.
Mr. JENNER. There are bits of information that we have of things we would like to find out. Do you have a definite recollection that the subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or are you refreshing your memory, is what I am getting at? If you have no recollection, I would prefer you say so.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. I remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast; apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your answers---do I gather correctly that what you are saying is that she stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. That morning.
Mr. JENNER. That morning--that she did go out to the kitchen that morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'll put it this way. She apparently slept a little bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her. From this I made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him and she ate.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you recall that she said that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I understood--here's my problem either I recall or I recall future instances from translating her life history.
Mr. JENNER. It is important, Mr. Mamantov, for you to recall and to exclude from your mind--it is very difficult I appreciate and to exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after November 22d.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I realize that.
Mr. JENNER. What I am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do you understand?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand. As far as I know, she said that he didn't return backward--I mean--come back to her-- she didn't get up at the time he was leaving. After a while she got up.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the translating you----
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. At the city police station, that she said was that he left the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say that she then went into the kitchen?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did she say what she found when she reached the kitchen?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She found that the coffee wasn't--I mean, or, she thought he didn't eat.
Mr. JENNER. He had not prepared breakfast, in fact----
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Then, I also remember her saying, but I don't remember how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check her belongings which were stored in the garage, Mrs. Paine's garage, and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit different position than she remember it before.
Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the configuration, shape form of the blanket?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I'm saying--I'll come to it. Then she was asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention particularly to the blanket. She said he kept his gun in that blanket. Now, she also said--she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it looked, she said, "Probably--yes," she has seen not the whole gun but she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this moment the gun was brought in.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to the kitchen, noticed that Oswald had not prepared any breakfast----
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. She then went to the garage; is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, or she was led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "I went." I assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went to the garage.
Mr. JENNER. After she had inspected the kitchen?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether Mrs. Paine was up and about at that time?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember anything about Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MAMANTOV. You see, Mrs. Paine also gave a statement later on after Marina finished.
Mr. JENNER. Let's stick with Marina for the moment.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, otherwise I would be confused.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked, and did she respond on that subject?
Mr. MAMANTOV. To the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen a blanket----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the day. Do you recall that the question---is it because of the questioning, or she voluntarily----
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; because of the question.
Mr. JENNER. Because of the questioning, that after she was in the kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? Just relax and think about it.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'm afraid I wouldn't remember in such extent, if she went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when police was at Mrs. Paine's home, and I imagine those points are very important to you, and I don't remember at the moment, I mean, to the exact time.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; they are important--you see, your responses when you first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I'm afraid I cannot state positively whether she went during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen--I do not----
Mr. JENNER. You cannot state it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that she went before noontime?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I cannot state.
Mr. JENNER. Or that she went out to the garage at any time before the police arrived, which was in midafternoon?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. I do remember that she was asked about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen before, about 2 weeks. I remember her mentioning about 2 weeks to the questioning.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto?
Mr. MAMANTOV. About 2 weeks---yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your answer was "yes?"
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before. After that the question was asked what was in this blanket. She said it was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would bring the gun from the Soviet Union, and also was asked the question if she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at this moment the gun was brought in. Let me try to remember a little bit?
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in the garage prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. MAMANTOV. This question was asked her. And, she gave a little bit evasive answer.
Mr. JENNER. You tell us what she said rather than you giving your opinion as to whether it was evasive.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, if I remember right, she said she didn't know if it were there.
Mr. JENNER. She did not know----

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Mr. MAMANTOV. That it was there on that particular morning; however, she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if I remember right, that Lee took with him the gun and she was also asked----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and you translated it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. That she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the blanket in the garage?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, sometime in the past.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the blanket in the garage prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right--yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she had discovered it prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said in that regard.
Mr. MAMANTOV. She saw the stock of the gun, which was dark brown--black, she said.
Mr. JENNER. These were responses of hers before the weapon was brought in the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I want to stick to that period, before the weapon was actually brought into the room, and state what she said.
Mr. MAMANTOV. They asked her also at that time when did he purchase the gun and such as where. If I remember right, she said she didn't know, she stated also that he had had a gun in the Soviet Union. They asked her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. She said, "Yes, it was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color," and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her, and at that time the gun was brought in.
Mr. JENNER. Let's not go to that subject at the moment. I want to go back.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of November 22, to examine the blanket?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; here, I cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and this--I don't remember--here is my time lapse whenever she saw it.
Mr. JENNER. But whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day, what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The blanket was, I'll put it this way, different position as she has seen in the past.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in a different position, in a different place in the garage?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't anything in it.
Mr. JENNER. You mean it was in a different shape or form or condition?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--condition.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say what the different condition was?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, but that attracted her attention. This I remember very well. She stated it attracted her attention--as she had seen before, so much I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition, shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had seen it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Evidently--if somebody, for instance, if you see a package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape.
Mr. JENNER. Did she describe the shape and form and condition of the package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on November 22, what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it looked like on the occasion of November 22 when she saw it again?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, going back, she had seen the package of

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elongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and knowing it was Lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she left it in same shape she had found it.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of the package?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No. No.
Mr. JENNER. Just the butt end?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Just the stock end and she covered immediately and back so as a result, she--she didn't pull out all--she didn't open the package.
Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to where the package was in the garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it before November 22 and the position it was located in in the garage when she saw it on November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The question was asked and she answered, it was with her belongings which she couldn't bring into Mrs. Paine's home, and if I remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different shape or in a different condition. What it was, I don't know. It was in the garage in one of the corners.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say as to the difference and the content?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She said when she saw the blanket it didn't contain the gun.
Mr. JENNER. It did not contain the gun?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It did not contain the gun.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when she saw it on the 22d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain what she discovered was a rifle?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping of that character?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Was that subject brought up?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during the questioning was the blanket package brought into the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said when she was asked about her entry into the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was with her when she did that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I think--was police and Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. At the time that she examined the blanket?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Once for sure I don't know what happened before that.
Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of Mrs. Paine and the police?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that she did testify or relate as to the incident you now have in mind that Mrs. Paine was present and the police were present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. On one occasion; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is that the only occasion she was examined about, that is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of the police?
Mr. MAMANTOV. This, I don't know for sure.
Mr. JENNER. It might have been that she testified to having gone to the garage on two occasions that day.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Sir, I don't remember for sure. I rather wouldn't like, as you say, to interpret--I would be very happy to relate everything I know. If you don't remember, you don't.
Mr. JENNER. May I emphasize over and over again, Mr. Mamantov, that you don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your mind took place around 6 o'clock on the 22nd.

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Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. So, let me impel you from any thought I have a desire for you to testify one way or the other.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Because I don't--all I want you to do is to tell, as best you can, your recollection of what took place.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't remember if she stated this or she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--you don't want to exclude by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior to the time the police arrived.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't want to exclude it.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have enough recollection at the moment to testify one way or the other on that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I noticed that you did say that Marina related the fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I didn't say so. I said, "Elongated package---she saw an elongated package," but I don't recall the size of the package, the size of the package she testified it was.
Mr. JENNER. I think you did testify earlier that Marina remarked that she had seen the gun in sections?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Today?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you can read it back--I haven't.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record. (Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness Mamantov off the record.)
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw, and I related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and she saw the stock of the gun so much--that I said--there so much--you asked me.
Mr. JENNER. It's important, Miss Oliver, let's go back just so we will be certain of it and see if we can find it. (At this point at the request of Counsel Jenner the reporter referred to previous testimony of the Witness Mamantov and reread the following: ("No, put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the line that he didn't return to her room. I remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.")
Mr. JENNER. When the question was put to her as to why, she went to the garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction, what did she say?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't remember. That is again coming to the point--I don't remember what time she saw--either she saw by herself or she saw during the time when police arrived.
Mr. JENNER. But, in either event, whether she went there on her own prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the package, if she said anything?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. When police arrived they asked her specific questions about particular blanket.
Mr. JENNER. What questions?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation to the shape she saw last time. She said, "No, it has different shape."
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage, had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the Paine's--what was the sequence, as you recall?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. She was asked if she knew that the gun was at the premises of Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. The questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked whether this gun--when at the Paines, whether she knew knew where the gun used to be, and then she said she hadn't seen gun since the gun--she saw last time and this particular day when gun wasn't there. No; she never stated, and I don't think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular morning. That, I don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun was with her belongings.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Prior to November 22--that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And her response was in the affirmative?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Only physical item was gun.
Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was not brought into the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, the only physical item was brought in, was the gun itself, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was the gun when brought in fully assembled?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did it have the telescopic sight on it?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what I mean by a sling?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I know what you mean, but I don't remember right now. I think it did, but I wouldn't be for sure I wouldn't be sure of the statement. Now, I don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated when she was questioned before where he purchased the gun, and if it was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her response?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Her response was that it is possible that this is the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union---I can say so much for sure and that's where I didn't like this.
Mr. JENNER. No; you just interjected, your own observation, that is, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union--that was an observation on your part, not what she said.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be--not to put it into the record, but I think it is very important when she went back--when she said that the gun was brought in from the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. Might have been?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It might have been--so, she didn't know. The question was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she said, "I don't know. He had always guns. He always played with guns even in the Soviet Union. He had the gun and I don't know which gun was this." And she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun--she was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She said, to her all guns are dark and black and that's all--so much she said about it.
Mr. JENNER Before we get to the gun itself, I would like to ask you some more questions.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Before we get to the gun itself---all right.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your answers that she either said or implied that when they were in Fort Worth, when they were in New Orleans, that he had the gun that she had in mind?
Mr. MAMANTOV. This particular gun?
Mr. JENNER. Whatever gun she had in mind.

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Mr. MAMANTOV. She made statement this way: She said he always had guns, he always was interested in guns--this statement she made.
Mr. JENNER. And he always had a weapon?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he always had a weapon.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about a pistol as distinguished from a rifle?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question and I don't remember a reply.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination of the package and what she found---would you state as chronologically as you can? Did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part--"I went into the garage, I looked for the blanket package, I saw the blanket package, I walked over to the blanket package, I stepped on it, or I lifted it up, or I opened it up" was she questioned that closely?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember, questions like you stated.
Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon in the blanket package?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember the question--neither question.
Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she was not examined on that subject?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--yes.
Mr. JENNER. At any time during this questioning was she asked whether she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon she saw with him in his possession--unwrapped?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, I don't think the question was asked.
Mr. JENNER. Was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle whether it was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she stated that he liked to hunt.
Mr. JENNER. Well, was she asked whether he hunted in Russia when he was in Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, yes. She made statement that he also was hunting in Russia and supposedly was hunting here.
Mr. JENNER. She did say that her impression was that he hunted here in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--she said he was using his guns for hunting. She didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used to hunt in Russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here.
Mr. JENNER. She did not say that he hunted in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No.
Mr. JENNER. From the evidence, they came over to this country in June 1962.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No--the question was asked if he hunted here or not and reply to why did he have the gun--because she said he had hunted in Russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun.
Mr. JENNER. Was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Not in my presence.
Mr. JENNER, Was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their home in New Orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in Fort Worth, sighting it and pulling the trigger--dry sighting; do you know what dry sighting is?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right--no, she wasn't asked.
Mr. JENNER. Was she asked in your presence whether there was an incident in which there was an attempt on the life of General Walker?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing about that at all?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Nothing about that.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter, she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the translating

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or interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not specifically, but this rifle I'll put it this way-- about her seeing him with a weapon.
Mr. JENNER. Any weapon?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Any weapon.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now, have you told us everything you can recall about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle was brought into the room? Is there anything else--don't be concerned about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said on this occasion is relevant to us.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I understand and I am trying to recollect. No, I remember--I think I said everything I could remember.
Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when the gun was brought into the room?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there a court reporter present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, the detective took down.
Mr. JENNER Made notes?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Made some notes, and which were read to her.
Mr. JENNER. Eventually--that is, at the conclusion of the examination he summarized his notes in her presence?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, he read word by word, I translated back. He didn't write in shorthand, but he wrote it, I remember very well--Mrs. Paine tried to correct his English and, of course, minor mistakes. I probably wouldn't write the same way--you don't expect every policeman to write the same English, and which the question was whether "I" or "me"--that's the mistake it was.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when that summary was given by the officer in the presence of Marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She signed it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to Marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, they read back to her, I translated back into Russian and she agreed. Only, there was Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine made a remark about the grammar.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I think--let's go ahead--the weapon is brought in.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right.
Mr. JENNER. It is fully assembled?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It is fully assembled.
Mr. JENNER. It has a telescopic sight on it and the leather sling?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Captain Fritz brought it in and was holding it in his two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around--in that position (indicating).
Mr. JENNER. Holding it up--holding it like that (indicating)?
Mr. MAMANTOV. More or less--you see--inclined in that position.
Mr. JENNER. Holding it up horizontally or close to the horizontal?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to examine. She was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in the past in that blanket. She said, "I don't know. All guns to me are the same, are a dark brown or black." He asked her again--"This," which was to me very dark or black colored. He said, "Is this what you see?" She said, "No, I don't know. I saw the gun--I saw a gun ;" she said again, "All guns are the same to me." Then they asked her about a sight on the gun.
Mr. JENNER. S-i-g-h-t [spelling]
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; a telescope she said, "No; I never have seen gun like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you--is this a conclusion on your part that she referred back to the Soviet Union

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Mr. MAMANTOV. No--no--she said this way.
Mr. JENNER. It isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth, so you can go ahead.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, she said the gun which he had in the Soviet Union, she didn't know how to say--she said, "This thing."
Mr. JENNER. The telescopic sight?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The telescopic sight--she pointed to it with her finger.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever it was he had in the Soviet Union--her recollection was it did not have a telescopic sight on it?.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. She was asked if she had seen this part of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket--this she said again--she said, "No; I have only seen one part of the gun, which was the end of the gun"--which part they asked her--I think I am calling it----
Mr. JENNER. The stock?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She pointed to the stock---correct--and then she was asked about the gun again and she said, "Dark brown-black."
Mr. JENNER. Still referring to the stock?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Still referring to the stock, and then they asked her for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his possession. She insisted that to her all guns are the same and she couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the past.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, it is your recollection that they questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she had seen, and her responses consistently were they were, no matter how close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all she thought, to fairly summarize?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. They asked her again, "Is this the color you saw?" She said "Yes--yes, it reminds me of the same color." They particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the gun and hasn't seen the whole gun.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And they asked her, I think they came back again and asked her if she has seen him carrying something.
Mr. JENNER. Carrying something?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Carrying something, and she said, "No," she didn't see him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something.
Mr. JENNER. You mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left that morning he was carrying anything?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And her response was?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house, or whatever he was taking--means of transportation.
Mr. JENNER. She didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair statement of her statements?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's exactly right.
Mr. JENNER. Did they question her as to the details of his coming to Irving, Tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on Thursday night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a Friday, did they go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point to point so that they could exhaust the movements of Lee Oswald that previous evening?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; if I remember right, they didn't question her to the extent of his arrival--well, I don't remember.

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Mr. JENNER. They concentrated on his presence the following morning and what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left?
Mr. MAMANTOV. To me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having the gun, and "this is the gun he used."
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous evening?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, any questions as to why he came home on Thursday rather than on Friday as usual?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't remember----
Mr. JENNER Did they go into any questions with respect to the acquaintances of the Oswalds with people here in Dallas or in Irving or in Fort Worth or in New Orleans?
Mr. MAMANTOV. At that particular time?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did this examination take place? What was its duration?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Roughly, I would say about 2 1/2 to 3 hours. You see, Mrs. Paine also testified, she was present so they took two statements--from both of them.
Mr. JENNER. They took Mrs. Paine's and then they took Marina's?
Mr. MAMANTOV. First Marina's and then Mrs. Paine's.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Paine's statement taken in Marina's presence?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And Marina's statement was taken in Mrs. Paine's presence?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret from English into Russian the statements made by Mrs. Paine that is, did you translate Mrs. Paine's statement, as she made it and the questions put to Mrs. Paine, for the benefit of Marina, so that she would understand the questions to Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Paine's responses?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; the statement was not translated into Russian.
Mr. JENNER. And you can see why that is important to me, as to whether Marina would take exception to anything Mrs. Paine said?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right. Now, we were waiting about 2 1/2 or 3 hours altogether for the typist to type that.
Mr. JENNER. It was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the statement, the reading of the statement to Marina and Mrs. Paine, and then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then sign them.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. All of this took about 3 hours?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine speak to Marina in Russian while you were present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, yes, she did. Mrs. Paine spoke in Russian to Marina-- yes, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Any statements made by Mrs. Paine in Russian to Marina, were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have testified?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't think so. I don't remember--personal conversation more or less about the child who was present.
Mr. JENNER. The conversations between Mrs. Paine and Marina in Russian, were they conversations related to personal matters--the children?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The children; and only on one occasion I remember was to her protection--Marina's protection.
Mr. JENNER. And what was that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. "What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr. JENNER. Who made that statement?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Marina asked of Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. "What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr. MAMANTOV. What are they going to do with me now?"
Mr. JENNER. And what did Mrs. Paine say?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, then, she asked--are they going to send her back to the Soviet Union, and Mrs. Paine said, "I don't know," and then she looked at me and I said, "I don't know either. If you are innocent, then you will be innocent," I couldn't say one way or the other, and I didn't want to go into conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to Marina that, "If you are innocent--then you are innocent"--did you mean to imply by that that she would not be deported in that event?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and then I expressed hope that nothing would happen to her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the best of your recollection that was said?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to Marina or to both of them?
Mr. JENNER. First, in relation to Marina--during the course of that 8-hour meeting or session at the Dallas City Police Station.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I think I have told you everything I remember.
Mr. JENNER. In an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything asked her about her relations with her husband, Lee Oswald, whether they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any problems in that connection?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think it was brought up at that particular time.
Mr. JENNER. You have an especial command of the Russian language, you teach Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And have taught Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mrs. Paine speak Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state for the record the extent of Mrs. Paine's command of the Russian language?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Say for--I can give only comparison for American person and for Russian person. I say for an American person--fair to good for knowledge of the language, for command of language very poor.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the only occasion when you interpreted or translated for Marina?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In person? In her presence?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's the only occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time after this incident, this questioning?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Intentionally or unintentionally?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think, either way.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Either way--yes, sir--I once on one Saturday, my mother-in-law and I went to Sears to Ross Avenue store.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Shortly afterward.
Mr. JENNER. How shortly--the next day?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, no---the next day after Martin, I guess, came into the picture.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to speak with her then?
Mr. MAMANTOV. My mother-in-law went into the main entrance and I opened the door, and if I remember right, I was holding the door for somebody else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. I closed the door and started to walk off and catch up and I heard somebody calling, like in my conscious, calling, "Mr. Mamantov," in Russian and in a very little whisper, and I was walking a couple of steps further and I heard it again, "Mr. Mamantov," again in Russian and I turned around and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young men around, so in my mind it occurred--this is Marina, but I was so surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station. Her hair became dark and I called out "Netasha," and she called me in Russian and said, "No, this is Marina." So, I introduced myself immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying I was translating for her at the police station and my name is so and so.

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In the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for me and I told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, I said, "How are you doing?" She said, "Now is becoming quieter. I am very tired." That is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement of Sears store and when we finished our business, we were going up again--excuse me--by myself. Mother-in-law was waiting for me somewhere--I had to go and check on my credit, so after going into the Sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group again, and I tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the escalator, and I stepped on and I told to one, who later I found out was Martin, and I didn't know at that time who was Martin, and I told him, I said, "If she needs help in translating the language, please call on me." And so and so, and that's the time I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you have seen her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You do--when did you first meet him?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember exactly, but let me go back--are you through with Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. JENNER. I'm through with her only if you have told us everything about this particular occasion.
Mr. MAMANTOV. One occasion they asked Mrs. Paine, and who was also present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a gun.
Mr. JENNER. If Mrs. Paine knew?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct--it's important to you to know this, please?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And she said, "No, she didn't." Why didn't she know that Marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "Yes, I knew," and "How didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "Because I didn't go through her belongings. I mean, it isn't my business to check on what she had there." Now, they asked her also, knowing that she is a--what is the religious denomination in Pennsylvania?
Mr. JENNER. Quaker.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Quaker. Would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that you are Quaker? She said again, "It belongs to her, and it isn't for me to say," and this is the extent I remember statements on Mrs. Paine's part.
Mr. JENNER. She wasn't asked either about what had occurred the previous evening; is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. MAMANTOV. You told me to say only what I know--I know this.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to state only what you recall, sir.
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember---this is overlapping two occasions--whether that was that evening, if you will show me the statement that was written will elaborate in details on it.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record. (Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mamantov, off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Are you acquainted with a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him?
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I remember right, in the early part of 1956.
Mr. JENNER. You were then a resident of Dallas?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And will you describe George De Mohrenschildt as to his physical characteristics first?
Mr. MAMANTOV. A tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud in society, likes to tell one company jokes---one sex jokes.
Mr. JENNER. He's a hail fellow, well-met type?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

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Mr. JENNER. Garrulous, talkative?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Very.
Mr. JENNER. Expansive type?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What color is his hair?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when I met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that.
Mr. JENNER. Sort of a ladies' man?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married, twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a--a divorce was pending.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with his then wife?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I am acquainted of his girl friend of that general area, who is now his wife.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember
Mr. JENNER. Was she a native born American?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Zhana, I think, probably in English would be Jane, and to spell Zhana in English translation is Z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. This was the way she was called in the Russian society.
Mr. JENNER. And translation of that would be Jane in English, you think?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I would say so--also of Russian.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you--she was of Russian derivation?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. She was born in Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That, I don't know--I don't know her, as well as I know George.
Mr. JENNER. She was not an American born?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I'll put it this way. She speaks too good Russian to be an American born.
Mr. JENNER. What about De Mohrenschildt in that respect?
Mr. MAMANTOV. He speaks perfect Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a native-born American?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I don't think so, because he was educated in Leige, Belgium--well, he finished here--I know for sure if we meet again, I can bring you more details from our geological directories, all this information, and if I remember right, shortly we met him and Zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very small--actually was just a regular residence.
Mr. JENNER. You told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you participated in an effort to organize a church here in Dallas?
Mr. MAMANTOV. In Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. In which you anticipated people of Russian derivation would be interested?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did that church have a name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Saint Nicholas Eastern Orthodox Church.
Mr. JENNER. Eastern Orthodox Church?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and there I saw him and her, I'm talking about Zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. If I remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward the end of the service, which shocked all my family. I mean--just to describe a man this way----
Mr. JENNER. You mean this is part of his personality?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right; and every place we met him he was talking to ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person wouldn't do it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am trying to have you do is tell us of your acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to the extent you can--and the part he played in your life. I am getting at the Russian emigre group here in Dallas.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him, as you have described?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No---no, no; I haven't.
Mr. JENNER. Or known of him?

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Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first time I met him through Mr. Bouhe, and this was a first acquaintance and just like I said, the only places--it was in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long because of him. We just have some reason--we had a tendency to avoid this person as much as possible.
Mr. JENNER. You acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. From what he did and what you thought he represented?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, because being of the same nationality, I thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina or Lee Oswald knew the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I know that Marina related the conversations to my mother-in-law as "our best friends in Dallas," referring to both of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. You are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that Marina said to her, "These were their best friends in Dallas"?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. We both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that remark was made to you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean, it was made in a family--after my conversation between my mother-in-law and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. And there was yourself--and anybody else present----
Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife was present.
Mr. JENNER. When your mother-in-law made that statement in your presence?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. But Marina was not present at that time?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; our family haven't seen Marina in our lives. Mother- in-law never have seen Marina--was except at a distance at Sears store, except that time.
Mr. JENNER. Your information is that there never was any direct contact between your mother-in-law and Marina except on the telephone?
Mr. MAMANTOV. On telephone.
Mr. JENNER. And, was that by way of the telephone?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you were not present, in the presence of your mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with Marina?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; I was at work. You see, she lived--if I can take your time, I can tell you how it happened, if it is important I can. I don't want to take your time.
Mr. JENNER. I want to avoid hearsay, and that's why I am going a little carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with your mother- in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's what I thought, but the reason she talked was because Marina was at Paine's house and Paine went to San Antonio and asked my mother-in-law to check on Marina because Marina was pregnant at that time--you see the connection?
Mr. JENNER. No; to check on Marina, that she had any suspicion of her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. Now, my mother-in-law--I asked Mr. Peterson who called me on Friday if my mother-in-law would be called or is called, I will come with her because she needs a translator.
Mr. JENNER. You may bring her.
Mr. MAMANTOV. If I may bring her with me because everything she knows we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and I translated for her when she was questioned by FBI. She doesn't speak enough English to answer your questions.
Mr. JENNER.. Oh, is that so?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She will understand what you are talking about but--as far as that--she is 75, and an elderly lady and she can be quite nervous by being by herself and so on.

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Mr. JENNER. All right, I will attempt my best to put her at ease, which I have tried to do with you.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I am at ease as much as I can be. I'm trying to be, because the reasons I hesitate to say--"Yes, I remember." I don't remember in some cases, or maybe I remember, like when I translated with Mr. Martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to separate right now without going back and reading the report.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with a couple, Igor and Natalie Voshinin?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. They are friends of yours?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct; they are also friends of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. And have you had conversations with the Voshinins with respect to Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and on quite a few occasions.
Mr. JENNER. During any of those conversations was any reference made to a trip that De Mohrenschildt made or might have made to Mexico City, Mexico?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. When was that trip supposed to have taken place?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't remember if it was in 1958 or 1959. I don't know. Mrs. Voshinin can tell you exactly the time.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we intend to interrogate them as well. We will leave it to them.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but I heard from her, I mean, her statement to us was that De Mohrenschildt went to Mexico and met with the Soviet representatives and Mikoyan----
Mr. JENNER. That's spelled M-i-k-o-y-a-n [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV Yes--who was visiting at that time in Mexico. This, actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this---this mainly was my opinion of his politics, I mean, I had suspicioned, but this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are speaking of De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us your contacts with De Mohrenschildt; do they extend beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to organize the Eastern Orthodox Church?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, no; he did not participate.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. MAMANTOV. He did not--he never was interested in church life, but I met him through that group, and Mr. Bouhe, who are the most active participants in organizing the church.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what other Russian emigres of this group in Dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about which you have testified--yourself, Bouhe----
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I joined. This was done already by other people. We came in 1955---this already was going for a couple of years.
Mr. JENNER. Who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons interested?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe---
Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, yourself, your wife?
Mr. MAMANTOV. My wife not so much--she is a Catholic.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. MAMANTOV. But she attended, and, of course, she did everything for the sake of her children who are Greek Orthodox, and then Mrs.---oh, gosh, what is her name Mrs. Zinzade, Z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. Her first name is Helen and his name is, I think, George, but I can look in the telephone book later on.
Mr. JENNER. That's all right. Are all these people generally Russian intellectuals?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I call you an intellectual.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. I meant to imply that.

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Mr. MAMANTOV. Put it this way--all of them have lower educational level than I do, except De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. De Mohrenschildt has a higher education, as you do?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Most of these other people have the qualifications or are interested in what?
Mr. MAMANTOV. De Mohrenschildt has the same or a little bit low----
Mr. JENNER. As yours?
Mr. MAMANTOV. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called miners, and the Voshinins are the same.
Mr. JENNER. Who else?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Grigor'ev--this was the benefactor of that church. That's called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin, Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian--Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e [spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there now, an Estonian couple who are very active--Hartens, H-a-r-t- e-n-s [spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it exactly, we take the telephone book--all of these names are in the telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing.
Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and Mrs. Meller--right, and the closest relationship is between her and Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; closest of all this group because these people actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute, but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the first time.
Mr. JENNER. Then, I'll ask you this general question--would you please state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free, in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life, his behavior in the presence of ladies---to us suspicious political trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can say of him.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the Dallas office?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I haven't told them anything except I know of the assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the knowledge I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough--I don't want to suggest the conversation to you.
Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to what?
Mr. JENNER. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what his political leanings were in her opinion?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation, after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs. Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I stated that he is a Communist-- we didn't hesitate.
Mr. JENNER. That was based upon the reports to you from your mother-in-law

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as to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone from this country to Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And had returned with Marina as his wife?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because after we found out--many people of Russian descent were somehow acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different sources of him and his political opinions.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly--give me your reaction to that.
Mr. MAMANTOV. My reaction--I never was asked to help them, never was approached by them or people who tried to help them.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, that people were trying to help them?
Mr. MAMANTOV. People who tried to help them, I told them on many occasions they shouldn't do it.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I told Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine was an interested person.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is strengthened due to the 22d assassination.
Mr. JENNER. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is, you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a realization----
Mr. MAMANTOV. It is a realization of what the people told me of his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were asked before.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that respect?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society, I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local Republican Party.
Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of or has there come to your attention any information or statement attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say, prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I understand---no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his capacity as President of the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning the President or any other name.
Mr. JENNER. And you have no information on which you personally can rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist?
Mr. MAMANTOV. You mean if I have proof--physical proof?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you meet George Bouhe?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or early

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part of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be a Russian, So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to my house--he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number--3405, if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller.
Mr. JENNER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Mrs. Meller--right.
Mr. JENNER. Is she a White Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she is--she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came from-- was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record a moment, please. (Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mamantov off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his political beliefs. What kind of person was he---was he quiet, retiring, avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so, are you acquainted with his reputation in the community?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--the people who wanted to help Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back--I mean--people tried to start conversations, always he went into political questions and, of course, im- mediately he disagreed.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant, was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people, did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been--for one reason or another he was disliked--I'll put it this way.
Mr. JENNER. All right--by the Russian emigre group as a whole?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community, in that community of people--Mr. Mamantov?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. It was one of reservation, dislike--that they did not think well of his personality?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard--he tried to keep Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back.
Mr. JENNER. He was holding back?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; once he beat up Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many instances.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Not from the one instance.
Mr. JENNER. But, not from one--one instance is hearsay to us.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well---only, I know that he was undesirable and after people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own houses, he was undesirable to those people.
Mr. JENNER. Was he regarded as a difficult person?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I think you have said this, but may I ask you--your mother-in- law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean---she get the job through me.

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Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to teach--and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students, and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for my mother-in-law to teach her Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several subdivisions--first, as to her personality.
Mr. MAMANTOV. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl, was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion was that she is very pleasant to be around.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian community for truth and veracity?
Mr. MAMANTOV. For whom?
Mr. JENNER. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, I see what you mean.
Mr. JENNER. A person upon whose statements one might rely?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--as a community. I do know in our family discussion.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll take that part of the community.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way, but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her on the first-hand information.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now, that is a political question.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Now, she told my mother-in-law----
Mr. JENNER. Now, please, did she have a reputation?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Wait just a second----
Mr. JENNER. A reputation, whether she was or was not--what did the Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law?
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right--you want the Communist Party of the United States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union?
Mr. JENNER. All right, I'll take both of them--I'll take the Communist Party of the Soviet Union first.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic Youth Organization--she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did Oswald himself.
Mr. JENNER. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political views and might actively support those views here in the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; I don't know this--I mean--I don't have any opinion. I haven't heard anything--I know that she didn't--she avoided political discussions, I'll put it this way.
Mr. JENNER. She did?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She did avoid political discussions.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the Fords?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I think you said Mr. Bouhe was a bachelor?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct. He is a bachelor now--he was married--he's divorced.
Mr. JENNER. He's a grass widower?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, but he was a very short time widower--he could be married.

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Mr. JENNER. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the Oswalds?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of that?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable impulse on his part?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You think it might have been ulterior?
Mr. MAMANTOV. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her husband beat her up.
Mr. JENNER. When there went through the Russian community a report that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--I think they were especially helping her, after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements. Supposedly, she was attacked by him--then the Russian community here in Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this more and more violently.
Mr. JENNER. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. By collecting clothing?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Gathering money and taking her into their homes on occasions?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right--assigning for certain families to keep for a couple of weeks or a week.
Mr. JENNER. That included Mrs. Meller?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get this person---
Mr. JENNER. When you say "he" you mean Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. He tried to place her with whom--Mrs. Grolle?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her home.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we have no information that she did.
Mr. MAMANTOV. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or for 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of a Mrs. Elena Hall?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Elena Hall--how do you spell it?
Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l [spelling], E-l-e-n-a [spelling].
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; the first name--Elena Hall?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene, H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person.
Mr. JENNER. No, that's a different person.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory or Peter Gregory?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; father, I think, is Peter.
Mr. JENNER. You mean one is the father and one is son?
Mr. MAMANTOV. One is father's name and one is son's name---that's correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call your name--if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it appears.
Mr. JENNER. What do they say in case since my name and my father's name are the same?
Mr. MAMANTOV. The same---it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald, it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned Volkmar Schmidt.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.

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Mr. JENNER. He was a roommate or lived with Mr. Glover.
Mr. MAMANTOV. And a close friend of Dick Pierce.
Mr. JENNER. P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Also a geologist.
Mr. JENNER. Or, P-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, P-i-e-r-c-e [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. What was his first name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling].
Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Norman Fredricksen a student?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man is he?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Oh, I would guess around 28 plus.
Mr. JENNER. He is a young man?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; he came to--he served in the Army.
Mr. JENNER. Do you--the United States Army?
Mr. MAMANTOV. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army. He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of the Russian language already.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of 1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private lessons for both of them.
Mr. JENNER. Had you also been tutoring Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. MAMANTOV. They came right now, they came to my house. Not before the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and willingness to teach individual students, so we split--I was tutoring Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to you about the Oswalds one night?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right, and Fredricksen and his wife came to visit with us.
Mr. JENNER. Your home?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and this was, I would say, sometime March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Was Fredricksen present?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating. You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those houses," and, of course, they said, "We Just wanted to speak Russian. Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't speak Russian very much except with Marina. She

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was very shy and didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with Oswald on political questions, because he understood.
Mr. JENNER. This was the report they made to you?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, those people from Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. What are their names--do you remember a given name?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife, she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the American occupation of Europe.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Gregory is a native-born Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name---it isn't his original name.
Mr. JENNER. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory, spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It could be he spelled it also with an "e", but that's originally his name.
Mr. JENNER. He is a petroleum consultant of some type?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Petroleum engineer---correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is he part Russian--part of the Russian emigre group here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been with Gregorys on a few occasions--I have been with the Clarks on few occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in the past--whom else the same I know them very well personally but we didn't meet--we don't meet as a group any more.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please state what you have in mind?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other--but knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her arrangement--how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet Union, because if I liked to get--if I would have liked to take some of my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and here, a young lady---20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out and--but I don't want to accuse her--maybe she's completely innocent. I know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else you want to add?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, not on this particular case, I think that's everything.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had a short talk with you before we began this deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition, that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I think you brought out everything that I think of.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, I don't think it is.
Mr. JENNER. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to influence you in any statements you might have made?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.

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Mr. JENNER. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards, I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your deposition.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov at this point.